Woke up this morning.

[rosie]

I am in complete agreement with you here, my friend. God either exists or he doesn't. I was merely pointing out that if he doesn't, if the universe really is nothing but a random scattering of matter and energy, then morality doesn't exist either. What you think of as morality, your sense of what is right and what is wrong, is merely the way your brain has been conditioned to respond to certain stimuli. It has no more objective meaning than a chemical reaction in a test tube.Phil

What stops atheists doing whatever they want, be it 'good' or 'bad' ? Social laws/shame/criminal punishment/outcasting.

We are all essentially selfish individuals. Even the act of giving is selfish. We act in ways that give us the best chance of getting what we want, and the least chance of punishment/exclusion.

Morality is based on social customs as a means of social control - which used to be widely governed upon by the religions of the day - not as much nowadays, politics and the justice system have taken over there largely.

Theistic or not, we all desire to live a happy life - atheists learn as we all learn, that in order to exist in a group such as society, you either conform or you are outcast. Being outside of the group means a life spent fending for yourself, no familial bonds, and generally a harder way of life. Theistic or otherwise, we all desire to get what we want in the most efficient manner.

The studies done on crime and deviance show that outside of their social group , an average person is far more likely to deviate/commit crime - this is because the social ramifications for deviance don't exist.

Torturing of a child - Hmm, depends on how you define 'torture', doesn't it? Some define cutting off a foreskin or female genital mutilation as 'torturing of a child', however both practises are customary in cultures (including our own) and are believed to be acceptable and even good.

There really are no inherrant universal taboos.

[Phil413]

What stops atheists doing whatever they want, be it 'good' or 'bad' ? Social laws/shame/criminal punishment/outcasting.

Partly, I suppose. I'd bet mainly it's whatever standards they internalized as they were being raised.

We are all essentially selfish individuals. Even the act of giving is selfish. We act in ways that give us the best chance of getting what we want, and the least chance of punishment/exclusion.

If you had said that to me two years ago, I might have agreed with you. But I've actually seen real selflessness unfold in my own life (of all people!)

As you may know, Mrs. Phil has been blind and bedridden these past two years, and there is no realistic hope that her condition will ever improve. She can't do anything for herself. She can't even roll over, or fluff her own pillow, or adjust her own blanket. I take care of all of that for her, and pretty much everything else you can imagine. I don't enjoy it; it's not fun. I do it because she needs it, not because I get anything out of it. Most of the time she isn't even very nice to me. She's depressed and irritable most of the time.

I think this is as close to selfless as I've ever come, because I can't think of any advantage for me in continuing to take care of her instead of letting her family do it (they've said they would). Everything I ever wanted out of a marriage is gone. We can't even go to McDonalds together, much less on a vacation. There is no physical relationship, and never will be again.

The only good thing to come out of this so far is the certain knowledge that I love her. I don't mean mushy romantic love, that's mostly just a hormonal reaction. I mean real, selfless love, where you seek the good of another for their own sake, not for what you can get out of it.

Phil

[chasman62]

I am staying well clear of this debate. Don't know why I even clicked on here because I have taken a commitment not to get engaged in these types of discussions (at least not here).

I do just want to say, however, that for those who feel compelled to try to find objective evidence for the existence of their particular version of 'god'....the somewhat tautological argument that if objective morality exists then god must exist is I think an extremely weak one (even though it is one that most theists cling very dearly into including some big time Christian apologists). What we view as 'objective' morality is not the process of random assortments of molecules but many millenia of active evolution and these beliefs are essential to the ongoing survival of a highly social species like human beings. Subjective morality is what we were taught in our own personal upbringing and society and many of the worst examples of subjective morality throughout history come from religious beliefs.

There...ahhh...feel better now. Over and out!

Chas

[rosie]

You just couldn't help yourself, could you Chas. bnana_dance