for religious people: Is P less sinful than sx

[WifeOfNewLifeMan]

I was thinking about this at work today and then when I came to the forums this evening, someone new had posted about turning to P instead of sx because of his religious issues. I wans't going to post this, but now I think I will.

I have a few thoughts about people who have religious reasons for not having sx with their girlfriend or boyfriend so they use P instead.

If pre-marital sx is a sin, is it less of a sin to look at P and possibly go to chat sites or wherever else people go when P use escalates? I think that if you are in a committed relationship, but not married, and you have sx, the Bible says don’t do it. But, if you do it anyway, God still loves you and all sins can be forgiven. Why would you think that sx with your gf or bf is a worse sin than indulging in lustful fantasies with hundreds or more random strangers?

God says that the greatest of the commandments is to love. So, I think that if I was unmarried but dating and in love, the better option (if I chose not to forgo sxual fulfillment) would be to be intimate with my partner that I love than to engage in lustful fantasies with numerous other people. If I was dating and in love, but my partner didn't want to have sx, I would not "respect their religious views" by just using P or other people for sxual fulfillment and think that is respecting and loving my partner. It is a mistake to think you can separate love and sx and face no repurcussions.

It is my opinion that people who say they don't want to have sx for religious reasons, or they are "respecting their partner's faith" but then go and look at P and interact in any way with another person for fulfillment, it is a cop out and a rationalization. Its a slippery slope of rationalizations that set the stage for continued P use later and more rationalizations. The "well my partner doesn't want to have sx outside of marriage" excuse then morphs into "well, my partner is tired, pregnant, bloated, out of shape, out of town...etc."

This is just food for thought.

[Vorlan]

I'm not Christian but I'm pretty sure the Bible condemns pornography at least indirectly here:

"You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery.' "But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart" (Matthew 5:27-28).

EDIT: Also:

"For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds. Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ." Corinthians 10:3-5

"Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's." Corinthians 6:18-20

As to whether this is worse or better than pre-marital sx I don't know but I remember reading somwhere that all sins are equal before God. Perhaps I imagined it :P

Best wishes,

Ben

[debv]

I think you're dead on, as usual, WoNLM. P/MB is s3x, it is just not s3x with a live, loving partner. The body clearly reacts to MB in the same way it reacts to other s3x acts, so distinguishing that from premarital or extramarital s3x is just splitting hairs.

I've said all along that P/MB is exactly the same as having s3x with the women in the P. Now that I've been going through DW's course materials for the program he's using for recovery, I have some support for this. According to the course, the brain processes movies the same way it processes things viewed in real life. It doesn't process them as fake or fantasy, it processes them as real. That's why you get sucked into a movie and feel real emotions along with the characters - you feel happiness, suspense, tension, fear, sadness, etc. The literary term is "suspension of disbelief" but what's really happening is your brain is accepting what it is seeing as real. The program said this is especially true the more realistic the movie looks; in 3D movies you'll duck when an object appears to come hurtling at you.

Relating this to P/MB, a PA brings him/herself into the movie, into the action, when MBing to P. The brain registers that it is seeing s3x and that it is feeling s3x and believes that you are having s3x. It is literally the same as having s3x with the P women/men. So physiologically and psychologically, it is the same as having s3x with someone not your spouse. That's adultery, and that's a sin. Period.

From a Christian perspective, even if you don't buy the physiological and psychological connection to P/MB, lust itself is a sin. There's no doubt P users are lusting for the women/men in the P. That's what it's all about. As Jimmy Carter famously said, the Bible teaches that you can, indeed, commit adultery in your mind whenever you look with lust on a woman who is not your wife. So, using P to MB is a sin in its own right. You're not avoiding the sin of adultery by "only" using P/MB for satisfaction. And speaking as a religious woman, I can tell you that your SO will feel no different than had you had physical s3x with those women. The hurt and the betrayal inflicted on the SO is exactly the same.

ETA: Ben, you're right, I remember learning in church that all sins are equal before God. It sounds wrong to us humans that lustful thoughts would be no different than mass murder, but to God sin is sin, and all sin separates us from Him. So, theologically speaking, you are 100% correct.

[cyberpunk]

I don't agree that sin is sin. This idea is part of the philosphy of the Stoics and IMO is a way of minimizing our guilt over our actions. While all sin is separates from God there are different degrees of sin. In Mark chapter 3 it says "But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven..." and in John 19:11 it says "He that delivered me unto thee, has the greater sin." From a biblical perspective all sins are not the same.

There are some sins that cause immense amounts of suffering and pain not only to ourselves but to others. If I steal a candy bar I can make reparations pretty easily. If I were to murder somone how can I fix that? What about rape, incest, slavery, the Holocaust? These are sins that have repercussions that last for generations.

I do think that almost every sin can be forgiven but the repentance process for some is much more intensive. With that said, I think using P instead of having extramarital sx is like choosing beer over liquor. While one is a little worse they are still really bad and destructive to the trust and love in a relationship and I believe they are both serious sins.

One more thought...and I'm sure some people will disagree but...I think that p is an entry level drug. I am much more likely to have sx with someone if I have been actively using p than if I haven't.

[dondeluis]

Im pretty sure Im the new member youre talking about. First of all, my religious views aren't Christian. I am an Agnostic, however I have spent time as an Athiest and Christian. Put it this way, when I started using P, it was like the angel(Christian) and the devil(athiesm) on my shoulders. When I was leaning towards being athiest, i went to P because the Christian views were holding me back(you have to realize that this started aroudn 14, I wasn't thinking well P is unnacceptable too).

[debv]

Cyberpunk, I've always been intrigued by that Scripture you cited about blaspheming against the Holy Spirit, because it clearly implies that non-Christians can achieve repentance and salvation, too. That seems logical, but there are certainly Christians who argue they can't, as well as places in the Bible that say they can't.

You're right, though, it does imply that that one sin is far greater than all the others. But overall I think ranking sins as not as bad as other sins is a human thing, not a God thing. I tend to agree with you, perpetrating the Holocaust is far worse than stealing a candy bar. I can't wrap my head around it, but I do firmly believe that with true repentance either can be forgiven by God. Humans, not so much.

It's an interesting thought. As DW has pointed out to me, he can't imagine me or anyone staying with their H if he'd slept with 1400-1500 women, but I'm still here and DW MB'd to/with that many women or more during the course of his 14 years of addiction. I'm still severely affected by it, but maybe it would be worse had it been physical sex. I mean, that's a pretty extreme number. But what is the number that would be the breaking point? I don't know.

[Vorlan]

While I don't agree with all sin being equal personally there is a fair few Biblical passages which seem to back it up. For example:

"For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it." - James 2:10

"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"- Romans 3:23-24

"Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness." - John 3:4-5

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" - Romans 5:12

It isn't that specific but in Matt 5:28 as I mentioned it says lust is the same as adultery and it says hate is the same as murder too...

Also in Revalations:

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. - Revelation 21:8

All these different sinners get the same punishment. A lie or disbelief is the same as murder here.

I'm sure there are examples which point the other way too. This is something even pastors don't agree on.

As I mentioned before I don't believe in this ideology and am not Christian myself but from my reading of the Bible I've been led to conclude that as all sins are equally punishible with Hell and that equally all sins are equally forgivable by repentance that in the eyes of God all sins are the same while in the eyes of man they are different.

Interestingly this all-or-nothing teaching on sin was first really challenged in the Middle Ages where the idea of spending time in Purgatory to work off sins came into being. This is when the idea of sins being different began to gain more prevalence.

Just an interesting bit of information there as I happen to be studying the Middle Ages at the moment at University. :)

Best wishes,

Ben

EDIT: I think the sin of defying the Holy Spirit is a special case as it implies disbelief and unrepentance.

[Daniel]

Vorlan!

It is a wonder for me to see you stating such a clear Biblical case on the Christian view of sin and simultaneously stating that you do not believe. HOWEVER, you've done a marvelous job with your above points may I say!

This back-and-forth of sin and the degree of sins etc.:

Vorlan: you have pointed to several excellent passages which bespeak of one of God's key attributes: Holiness.

"Be holy, because I am holy" (I Peter 1:16; Leviticus 11:44; 19:2; 20:7)

Thus God's standard is perfection and humans are sinful. The distance between God and man is the distance of infinity. I think debv made this point clearly.

Cyber: absolutely there are different outcomes to different sins, some worse than others. It is the distinction between Sin and Consequences: anything less than God's perfect standard is considered sin. Thinking about doing something wrong is a sin that perhaps is manifested in consequences by a guilty conscience. Putting actions on the wrong thoughts ups the consequences, perhaps considerably, with greater negative results (sickness, disease, divorce, prison, etc.).

Thus God regards all sin as less than His perfection, but has created an order which will render different consequences to humans depending on how far they stray from His perfect standard.

Here is an interesting passage from Romans 2 that touches this subject:

4Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?
5But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath [EDIT: face-value suggestion of different degrees of punishment in Hell] , when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life [EDIT: face-value suggestion of different degrees of reward in heaven]. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.

[cyberpunk]

It seems that we are really debating two different topics; salvation and sin. God is perfect and holy so no unclean thing can dwell in his presence. Whether you have a spot on your shirt or your are covered in filth you are still unclean. This is one of the consequence of sin not the gravity of sin. Sin not only separates us from God but it also brings us misery which is another one of its consequences.

Conversely, from a Christian perspective, he/she that accepts Christ, no matter how filthy they are/were are promised that they will be washed clean. This is the mercy of the atonement at it is freely given without money or price.

With all that said, IMO, it does not mean that the price paid for our sins was the same. I truly believe that Christ had to suffer more for the actions of some people then he did for the actions of others. Regardless, his sacrifice is available to all.

So, in conclusion, it doesn't matter if you got a 97% in life of a 10%, the price that is required to live in God's presence is 100% so we all fall short. The atonement covers the difference and the price for each of us is the same, regardless of our final grade. This, however, does not mean all sins are created equal just that repentance and forgiveness has a single price for all.

[jrock123]

At some level, I agree with Cyberpunk. My two cents is less biblical and more historical. whether a person is agnostic, atheist, christian, etc., it is almost impossible to not be overwhelmed with the way Jesus lived his life. He made a point of being among outcasts and sinners so that he could influence their repentance. Realistically, everybody sins. while its admirable to strive to be 100% clean, it is equally as admirable to recognize a mistake or a sin and repent and learn from it. in reality we are all sinners living in a world of sinners. I am not justifying sin. Regardless of what God wants, the son he sent to the people fully recognized that humans sin. in the context of the bible, porn is absolutely a sin if you are married. you are coveting something other than your SO. I can't say for sure that it is a "sin" if you are single. I can say its wrong and you should quit and that your quality of life will be significantly greater, but is it truly a sin? does it need to be a sin to be considered wrong? I don't think so. I realize I am not quoting scripture because I do not think you need scripture to see this is wrong. I am now porn free for 39 days and to me personally, porn is wrong and is a misuse of the gifts we have been given. whether you believe in God or not, the bible or not, Jesus or not - porn is wrong on many levels - period.