Misogyny, Gender, Society and P

[Admin2]

Can someone just advise me, how this is productive to members in assiting with recovery to PA's or SO's?

[rosie]

Admin2; the topic of feminism/women hatred is perhaps the (or at least, one of) the very root causes (according to sociologists) of porn addiction and sexual dysfunction. I think that's why it is relevant here. But that aside, Zachary is a member of this board and is sharing with others a philosophy in which helped him heal and recover from porn addiction. Very relevant in my opinion!

[Admin2]

Thats fine Rosie, can we all just keep it polite and respectful then, as we are getting a lot of reports on this thread.

Thanks
A2

[chasman62]

The problem with this thread Admin, as with any other that ventures into this type of arena is that people are all too willing to claim to be for 'open debate' until someone posts something that they don't agree with, and then they get slaughtered for it.

Gnein posted something from his own personal experience, which is what I thought TTF was about, and he gets absolutely pilloried for it by people who are just waiting to be offended.

I love how people who have read a couple of damn books want to tell those of us who have lived this life what is inside our head, and want to tell people what is acceptable or unacceptable to believe. If this carries on you won't have any PAs posting on this website at all for fear of offending the self-appointed thought police.

[fragileego]

I'm having difficulty understanding how people expressing their viewpoints or calling themselves a feminist suddenly equates to man-hating in this thread. This seems to be a typical response to women who are speaking from their personal experiences as a woman in this society.

I don't think some men really comprehend what it feels like to be a woman on a day-to-day basis. I'm not stating this to whine or to play the victim card, but the reality is that we are constantly treated like objects. When we cross the street or enter a subway train or a grocery store or even our offices at work, we are stared at, ogled at, by our male colleagues. Not all men, but many. Our breasts and bottoms and sometimes our faces too. It's part of the male gaze. Part of it based on a biological imperative to procreate. There are scientific studies on what the male gaze means and why certain female body parts are examined by men as a means to determine whether a female is to be deemed fertile and "worthy" enough to procreate with. Some men are better at hiding this than others. But my point is that it gets tiring. It's tiring that men do this, just as it's tiring that women seem to often reinforce the stereotype that we are to be judged by our appearances alone (just look at the unrealistic crap that women's magazine feed us). And trying to explain this to men sometimes gets tiring too, because we're perceived as whining or complaining about a legitimate issue in our lives. Or maybe it somehow threatens men when we discuss it, because it disrupts the status quo and forces us to re-evaluate our relationships with women and men generally. Women deal with this on a daily basis. Porn is merely a microcosm of a larger societal experience in which women are treated like objects.

We are not the same, men and women. We are different. That is not the same thing as saying that we are not, nor ought to be viewed as, equal. I don't think anyone here has suggested otherwise. But, if a woman is trying to communicate her experiences from the female perspective, please do not automatically dismiss it as male-bashing. Sometimes we do things without even realizing we are doing them, like staring at women and objectifying them, or somehow falling into the stereotype that somehow seems to be reinforced and fed to us by the mainstream media AND in porn.

Women are not objects. Neither are men. But the claim that men are objectified by porn just doesn't have the same weight to it as the fact that women are. For one, because most porn is produced by and for men with the male gaze in mind, and secondly, because women simply are not equal in society. It's like claiming that white people are oppressed in the US. Some white people are oppressed in the US (e.g., poor people), but mostly whites are in the positions of power and influence. And I think this ties into what Rosie stated -- that porn may, for some men, not all, of course, serve as an outlet to channel their frustrations to a perceived threat to them caused by women struggling to move up in the economic chain. I also don't think it's a coincidence that the level of demeaning and objectifying situations that women are placed in in mainstream porn is any coincidence, but of course, that is my opinion.

I recently posed a question on a news site that I and my H frequent, but that I have grown weary of due to the disturbing amount of misogynistic comments about women on it. I blatantly asked: "Why there were so many misogynists on this site?", though my greater concern was that perhaps the anonymity the internet gives us has simply made it possible for many of the men to state their opinions fully and without recourse. The response, overwhelmingly, was that women are perceived as being somehow culturally dominant in society, and that this legitimizes their objectification and debasement. I don't take these responses as something to make overall generalizations about, but I found the perspective to be an interesting one -- that these men really believed that women were treated as equal, and in many circumstances, are given preferential treatment due to their gender, and are thus undeservedly holding positions of power that should be held by men.

I think men and women alike could benefit from re-examining the ways that we treat one another (men and women, men and men, women and women), as well as our perceptions and expectations of one another, and how these perceptions and expectations of each other and of ourselves may be detrimental to our well being.

[rosie]

The problem with this thread Admin, as with any other that ventures into this type of arena is that people are all too willing to claim to be for 'open debate' until someone posts something that they don't agree with, and then they get slaughtered for it.

Gnein posted something from his own personal experience, which is what I thought TTF was about, and he gets absolutely pilloried for it by people who are just waiting to be offended.

I love how people who have read a couple of damn books want to tell those of us who have lived this life what is inside our head, and want to tell people what is acceptable or unacceptable to believe. If this carries on you won't have any PAs posting on this website at all for fear of offending the self-appointed thought police.

There were not just thoughts expressed, there were generalisations and misdirected blame and sexism. Being that this forum is for SO's AND PA's, the overwhelming need to supress these (civil) opinions for the benefit of PA's could also be taken as sexist in this context. Not saying it is, but it does smack of "better not upset PA's".

Part of this journey for SO's (at least, I can speak for myself) is largely working out that we have been treated terribly, and yet having a society tell us that we are wrong. Part of our realisation about not being okay with porn in our lives is also a realisation that we were never actually okay with it and the objectification inherent in society surrounding female sexualisation and objectification - through this journey for me I have realised that I was right all along - that my instinct was right 20 years ago when it told me that our worth is tied largely to how we are perceived as sexual objects - and largely dictated to us by a patriarchal society where the pleasure of men seems to take precedent over the feelings of the women in it.

Just like society tells PA's that "porn is normal", society tells us that there is something wrong with US for not liking it in our marriages. Part of this site is recovery for SO's too, and this discussion is part of that process for us. To censor it because some might find it challenging to their beliefs would be a sad day around here. There is opportunity for SO's and PA's alike to garner information and support in this thread, and to deny that would be a shame.

Fragile Ego, everything you said resonates with me - thank you for posting.

[chasman62]

Here is an idea for you Rosie. How about once, just once, you preface one of your own sweeping generalizations with the phrase 'in my opinion'. That would truly be most refreshing.

Thanks for that.

Chas

[rosie]

Chas, I assumed by my username being above my post that you would know that it is my opinion. I was not aware that it could be anybody elses opinion with me typing? In any case, I must mention that I was going to accuse you of using ad hominem attacks, but do you know what it means in latin? "to the man". LOL, thought that was interesting and fitting for this convo!

[Daniel]

I appreciate the energy that everyone has put into this thread.

Unfortunately I am compelled to close it.

Please be informed of the rules of the site: TTF community forums - Throughtheflame.org forum rules

Specifically:

(2.4) Messages posted to this board must be polite, respectful, and free of personal attacks, threats, harassment, name-calling, rude comments and/or innuendo. Messages deemed to violate the desired spirit of discourse on this board will be edited or removed at the discretion of the TTF team.