12 Step Program - Issues from an Agnostic

[IamLost]

Desert Ghost and anyone else who wishes to comment,

I just spent time reading through the 12-Step Program, after Desert Ghost refered me to it in my recovery journal: My Recovery Journal:. After reading through it I believe that 10 of the steps can be adapted (with varying degrees of abstractness) to those who are athiest and agnostic.

I still have issues with two steps that seem to be the meat and potatoes of the program. Steps 6 and 7 state "Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character" and "Humbly asked him to remove our shortcomings" respectively. No matter what I use as my higher power, I do not believe that it can remove my "defects of character." It is my mind that needs healing, my battle to be fought. I know that I clearly need help to fight this battle, and I have failed many times on my own, but that doesn't mean that god, TTF, or a therapist can magic away my enemy. The way I see it is that my higher power (right now I would say its TTF) can give me the sword and shield and teach me how to use them, but it is still up to me to fight this curse off.

With that being said I'm interested in everyone's thoughts. I am certainly going to use some of the tools and processes from the 12-Step program. It has a good beginning and end, but without being religious I will need a stronger middle.

Has any anyone who is athiest or agnostic used the program with success, and if so how did you handle steps 6 and 7?

I welcome thoughts from everyone, but please keep this respectful. I am simply trying to get better, and since so many people use the 12-Step Program I would like to give it a shot, but right now I am too turned off by steps 6 and 7. So if anyone can help me resolve the issues I have with them, I would greatly appreciate it.

-I am Lost

12-Step Program: The 12 steps - Twelve Step Recovery Program

[Benedict]

I just wrote a quite long reply, but lost it. So now a short one.
I think the 12-steps has been very successful with some people. Others, like me, are non-theist and even find it difficult to "surrender to a higher power, however you conceive of it". The closest I can come is to think of the higher power as my authentic self (the Buddhist would say Buddha nature or Big Mind) which is the true self stripped of all the delusions and clinging to beliefs and ideas.

But I think there are quite a few on this site who see the battle with PA as essentially something the self (higher and lower) has to do, and its really about self-growth and self-power. I can't recall specific names other than MaxB, perhaps someone else can point to some of the journals where people have taken this approach.

[JenMac]

Hello I am lost,
I have belonged to a 12 step program for the past 6 years. I joined Alanon due to an addiction problem with an important person in my life, (not my H). I am not a religious person. I have found the 12 step program to be most helpful in my life, in all areas in my life.
I do not deal with all 12 steps at once. I have only dealt with the first couple of steps at this point but that does not mean that it is not helpful in my life. Put the references to God aside for now. Start to deal "one step at a time". See where that leads you. One of our statements is 'take what you like and leave the rest'. That can work in any circumstance. Don't try to do it all at once. Some of the things I find most helpful are the the simplest of things. For example - the slogans can work wonders to change your mindset when you are experiencing difficulty. The serenity prayer is also something I can rely on to assist me in times of trouble.
The AA and Alanon programs are not meant to be religious programs but do perhaps lean towards the spiritual. Hope you find something that works for you!
Jenn

[dave42]

What a great discussion! IamLost: I'm in a 12 Step Program: Sex Addicts Anonymous. I really feel that Jen hit the nail on the head: "Put the references to God aside for now. Start to deal "one step at a time". See where that leads you."


My sponsor told me to take it one step at a time. I've spent 3 months on the first step, and it's been the most solid period of recovery in my life (I'm 44 and have been addicted to porn since I was a teen.)

I had very, very similar issues to you when I considered joining. And yet, when you go to a meeting, at least many of the meetings I've been to, there are many people who are not religious and who are struggling (successfully!) with the whole issue of God.

By the way, I just completed my First Step on Tuesday. Woo Hoo!!!! I also want to say that I tried Sex Addicts Anonymous once 6 years ago and hated it. I wish, I wish, I wish I'd gone back to more meetings. There is a good piece of advice that I've heard. Go to at least 5 meetings before rejecting it. The first few meetings you are just getting oriented, and you might hate it like I did. But now it's foundational to my recovery. There's just nothing like having a sponsor, a group of like-minded folks, and many of them with years of sobriety. As you said yourself, your Higher Power could be TTF or, in my case, SAA. It works for now as I figure things out. Good luck!

[Daniel]

IamLost,

Cards on the table, I come to this discussion from an evangelical Christian perspective.

First off, it is a strength that TTF forms a marketplace of belief systems, nearly all represented so far as I know. There have been very few 'heated debates' amongst the membership on such things.

And for good reason, "pragmatism" reigns in the war to overcome. I can think of three people here who are experiencing long-term success and all three have vastly different worldviews.

Now pragmatism will not bring my into God's presence in a favorable way at the end of my time. But it will help me to beat the Enemy at his own game.

With assurance the Bible does not explicitly say anywhere (far as I know) that God will or must remove my defects in character. Wouldn't that be a nice shortcut to recovery though!? The Apostle Paul begged God to remove his "thorn in the flesh" but God's response was "My grace is sufficient for you." If God didn't do it for Paul of Tarsus, he's not going to do it for Daniel of California. Doesn't hurt to ask though! And (in my view) miracles are allowed and possible.

I am not an expert at the 12-step program (see Dave, Dave 42, and Rowlf -all of whom did it).

With all due respect I would say the 12-step program missed a sub-point of key doctrine on Steps 6 & 7, the actual removal of defects. And it's probably just the way they thought about it and wrote it down.

What I would submit is God enables us to live with our defects, to overcome our defects, to live a successful life in spite of our defects.

They do not go away; instead God can use them to His glory (I understand your agnostic position, so no proselytizing, just doctrinal statements).

The Scriptures are filled with supreme examples of God revealing Himself to very imperfect people in far less-than-ideal circumstances and pulling off incredible feats despite it all. HIGHER POWER and how.

Minor Case in point: PAs on recovery helping other PAs to recover. Perfect. Something good being wrought out of something bad. Triumph from tragedy, etc., etc.

Ask and it will be given, seek and you'll find.

God will honor any and all Honest Skeptics!

Kudos for having the stones to bring the conversation forward in the first place.

Daniel

[Vorlan]

Hey I am Lost,

I too am an agnostic and I've personally found 12 step programmes don't really help me. To save me writing it all out again here's a post I made in my journal a while back about my personal views on 12 Step Programmes. (It's the bit in blue)

I was atheist at the time I think :)

I'm writing down my thoughts on 12 step programmes mainly for my own clarity of thinking. If 12 step programmes help you and you want to use them by all means use them. Think of this as simply the reasons why I personally don't use them.

Below is an example of a generic 12 step program:

1. We admitted we were powerless over our problems and behavious— that our lives had
   become unmanageable
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure
   them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we
    understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message
    to others, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
    Many of us exclaimed, ''What an order! I can't go through with it.'' Do not be discouraged.
    No one among us has been able to maintain anything like perfect adherence to these
    principles. We are not saints. The point is that we are willing to grow along spiritual lines.
    The principles we have set down are guides to progress. We claim spiritual progress rather
    than spiritual perfection.
    Our description of the alcoholic, the chapter to the agnostic, and our personal adventures
    before and after make clear three pertinent ideas:
    (a) That we had a problem and could not manage our own lives.
    (b) That probably no human power could have relieved our problems or behaviors.
    (c) That God could and would if He were sought.

OK lets start from the top:

1. We admitted we were powerless over our problems and behavious— that our lives had
   become unmanageable.

This is my first problem and it starts with "We admitted we were powerless over our problems and behaviours" - this to me seems wrong straight away. I've got as far as I have is by maintaining a believe that I can and will beat it. Thats one of the first things I say to new members! "You can beat this!" I think this first thing is a major flaw with the proccess. People need to be built stronger not broken into submission!

Next:

2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

My problem with this is twofold, firstly I am basically atheist and the idea of giving my life to any omnipresent power (which would by definition control me anyway) is wrong to me. Also I don't like the dependance that this makes. If a PA was to follow this approach then even if they succeeded in breaking their addiction then the loss of their faith (should it occur) would result in throwing them back to square one. I should know as I think the loss of my origional faith in Paganism basically meant the gains that faith had helped me make could no longer be maintained as I relied on that faith to beat the addiction for me. I put too much of my faith in an outside entity which meant when this faith in the entity was removed everything I had gained came crashing down.

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

These two steps I have no problem with, they are genuinely good advice.

6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

This I don't like, again it is relying on God to fix things for you, it makes you dependant on faith so that you can't fight your addiction yourself. It's more "you are weak, God is strong" stuff and it does nothing for me.

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

These three steps I also have no problem with

11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we
understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message
to others, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
Many of us exclaimed, ''What an order! I can't go through with it.'' Do not be discouraged.
No one among us has been able to maintain anything like perfect adherence to these
principles. We are not saints. The point is that we are willing to grow along spiritual lines.
The principles we have set down are guides to progress. We claim spiritual progress rather
than spiritual perfection.
Our description of the alcoholic, the chapter to the agnostic, and our personal adventures
before and after make clear three pertinent ideas:
(a) That we had a problem and could not manage our own lives.
(b) That probably no human power could have relieved our problems or behaviors.
(c) That God could and would if He were sought.

This the real crux of the matter. The reward of the twelve step program ultimately isn't freedom from PA it is a "spiritual awakening". Presumably the plan is to substitute the addiction with absolute devotion to Christianity. This as you may have already gathered is not how I think people should deal with PA. Using religion and faith in a higher power can help you to recover but it should never be the basis of your recovery. If you don't succeed using your own strength then you don't succed! You instead have a choice; return to square one or spend the rest of your life dependant on religion to fight your battles for you.


I understand that many people will not agree with a lot of my arguments. I have nothing against Christians as people nor against Christianity in general. As I mentioned before I am atheist but I have been Protestant, Catholic and Pagan at different times in my life. This isn't intended to be offensive to anyone so please accept my apologies if this offends you in any way. I will reiterate what I said at the start: if the programmes help you and you want to use them by all means do, this is just why I don't.

But yeah, those are largely my problems with 12 steps. Hope that helps see it from that side. 12 steps are one road to recovery but they are certainly not the only one. Don't ever think if 12 step doesn't work for you that nothing else will.

Best wishes,

Ben

EDIT: I love the discussion this has already generated. Really good points all round. Especially the "one step at a time". That's one of the best bits of advice I've ever been given. :)

[IamLost]

Thank you Volran, Daniel, Dave, Jen, and Benedict

I appreciate all of you responding. Volran, my beliefs really mirror yours closely. I took the advise of some others and have said for now that my higher power is TFF and SAA. In that way I'm turning myself over to their advice, guidance, and support. I don't know how it will work out, and I still am turned off by all the talk about God, and being powerless, but I've agreed to try out SAA for 6 weeks, and I'm still on week 1 so we shall se how it goes.

I hope this thread keeps getting responses, especially from other athiests and agnostics with nonreligious help, advice, programs, and adaptions to religious programs that have worked for them.

Thanks again,
-Lost