I embrace the same perspective of both HP and Dominus .. I've said to myself a lot that I would only MB and no P .. I thought of it as a gradual process to quit both .. but it never worked for me, whatever the period was that I went on without P I would just go back into it, sometimes even more intensively .. due to (as pointed out several times here) the lusting that's involved in the process..
And the main reason I want to quit both is due to my religious beliefs..
HP said
Quote:
2, Its not so much the action but what it takes to make it happen. The images, the thoughts that I have to bring into my mind in order for masturbation to take place and the images and thoughts that take place during masturbation make me lust over and over. I tend to use the images that I saw in porn and the literature that I read when pictures didn't seem to work. A guy from my church once talked to me about it. They said this, and this is from a Christian perspective, no intentions of shoving the believe on you if you don't believe it: "Its unclear to anyone if masturbation is really a sin, but in order to masturbate, most people need to lust, most people need to bring images into their heads to prepare them for it, and to aid them along the way, and that lust, those images and words are a sin, so theres a reason to stay away from it". Thats one of my reasons I stay away from it. I respect you whatever your believe is, however.
I find this amazing, because in my religion too the same controvorsy arises a lot about whether MB is allowed or considered a sinful act.
And the same answer that HP got was what I got which was "Any action is a sin if a sin is involved , even if it (the action) is good " ..
I'm not trying to force my beliefs on anyone nor did I intend to offend anyone.
It's the same for me. I don't believe that giving myself sexual pleasure is wrong in itself, but for me it involves recalling images from porn or imagining scenes based on those kinds of images, and as several people have said, this reinforces the addiction and the porn-based sexuality.
Interestingly, the Taoist teacher Mantak Chia talks about this. He says that stimulating yourself is healthy if it doesn't involve fantasising and doesn't lead to ejaculation. This involves focussing on the real sensations in your body, not on images in the mind.
When I have tried this, I was dismayed at how difficult it was for me to become aroused without playing images in my mind. That is the extent to which I have damaged myself by using porn.
Just wanted to pick up on HP's quote from the guy in the church. I feel that it's quite right what he's saying, just wanted clarify the word 'sin' a bit further because I think it's a bit of an unwieldy term which kind of gets peoples heckles up in our atheistic relatavistic society.
I found this quote by Eckhart Tolle from 'A New Earth';
'According to Christian teachings, the normal collective state of humanity is one of "original sin". Sin is a word which has been greatly misunderstood and misinterpreted. Literally translated from the ancient Greek in which the New Testament was written, to sin means to miss the mark, as an archer who misses the target, so to sin means to miss the point of human existence. It means to live unskilfully, blindly, and thus to suffer and cause suffering. Again, the term, stripped of its cultural baggage and misinterpretations, points to the dysfunction inherent in the human condition......'
So I guess in one sense one does sin if one calls up all that sexual imagery so as to have an orgasm as it generally causes some suffering somewhere down the line (be it to ourselves or others), but it's good to unload a bit of our medieval baggage around 'sinning' because I don't feel it helps us to find our own inner voice around these issues. Yes, I've sinned but in the sense that I've missed the point of existence!
Everyone here is keen to point out that Masturbation makes you think of bad images. The problem with this argument, however, is that it does not take into account of what happens to your mind and body when you go for long periods of time without masturbation.
A lack of masterbation for a very long time causes you to have an over-abundance of testosterone in your system. The more testosterone build-up you have, the more enticingly sexual images become and, after a long period of time, the more likely you will cave-in to indulging yourself with explicit images of Pornography. To avoid this breakdown, I masturbate 1 out of every 3 or 4 days.
According to CoolNurse.com, Masturbation has been significantly proven to help: a) Relieve Stress
b) Relieve menstrual cramps c) Help for insomnia (i.e. when a person is having trouble falling asleep) d) Stimulate the immune system to help build up resistance to common infections. e) Help release mood elevating hormones f) Reduce embarrassing spontaneous erections for teen males g) Reduce the number of unwanted wet dreams for young men
When I masturbate, I do the best I can to reduce sexual imagery. The images are still there, but I've kept them to a minimum.
Interesting points. Especially the idea of "original sin". Buddhism has the idea of "original purity", that we are all enlightened by our very nature, we just don't realize it. So right from the start we have been perfect and complete. But because of our delusion we try to "get stuff" to make us happy, which causes suffering. Maybe not such a different idea from the Christian one...as it acknowledges we are all deluded, and suffering ("sinners"), which covers up our originally pure state.
Anyway... thinking about the M issue... I've thought for a while, as some people have been saying, that it is basically harmless, stress relief. And it could be. I think it depends on what you use to get yourself off. If it is reinforcing unhealthy stereotypes from P....it could be unhealthy. On the other hand, it could be thinking about your partner and the last time you made love...or anticipating the next time. But then, if s/he is around, I guess you don't need to M. For myself, I think I am changing my opinion a bit these days... I do live with my partner, so I don't feel the need to get instant gratification whenever I feel like it. I can wait until she is ready, so I don't need to M. I feel that it would be sexually greedy to do so. On the other hand, if I was single, I would definitely need some sort of sexual release....celibacy isn't for me. So, in that case, I would do so, but would try to keep it healthy and not do it too often and fixate on harmful, poisonous imagery. This is quite strange for me to say, as I've always, in the past, been of the opinion that M is completely harmless, and of course you should get sexual gratification when you want it. Maybe that's been part of my problem?
Everyone here is keen to point out that Masturbation makes you think of bad images. The problem with this argument, however, is that it does not take into account of what happens to your mind and body when you go for long periods of time without masturbation.
A lack of masterbation for a very long time causes you to have an over-abundance of testosterone in your system. The more testosterone build-up you have, the more enticingly sexual images become and, after a long period of time, the more likely you will cave-in to indulging yourself with explicit images of Pornography. To avoid this breakdown, I masturbate 1 out of every 3 or 4 days.
According to CoolNurse.com, Masturbation has been significantly proven to help: a) Relieve Stress b) Relieve menstrual cramps c) Help for insomnia (i.e. when a person is having trouble falling asleep) d) Stimulate the immune system to help build up resistance to common infections. e) Help release mood elevating hormones f) Reduce embarrassing spontaneous erections for teen males g) Reduce the number of unwanted wet dreams for young men
When I masturbate, I do the best I can to reduce sexual imagery. The images are still there, but I've kept them to a minimum.
Yeah, that's a part where I'm confused about. Many reliable online sites dealing with sexuality say MB is perfectly normal behaviour. However, I"ve been to other anti porn forums where members are staunchly against MB. They say it leads them back to P. And that is my argument. If after constant MB, you go back to P, then obviously its harmful and should be stopped. However, if you can MB without going back to P, then I say its not harmful and can even be benefical in the ways listed above. The problem here is that we're not sure if MB or even fantasizing/looking at girls is wrong. If the mentioned activites are harmful in the same way P are, then obviously they should not be practiced. We all know we should stop P abuse becasue all of us have seen/heard/experinced the nasty eefects of P. However, not much of us are clear whether MB is as harmful as P, so alot of people are confused on this subject. Me included
I have been clean, no P or M for 40+ days. I have written a celibacy contract that originally was for no MB for 30 days. I changed it to 60 days because I felt I wasn’t ready yet and if I MB’d even once I would likely be back to P. I was routinely MB’ing with P everyday and 2 or 3 times a month I would binge on MB and P for 4 or 5 hours at a time. I’ll evaluate where I am at 60 days and I am willing to extend no MB to 90 days if I feel that it would be beneficial.
By being celibate I have been rewarded with clearer thinking and I have been able to deal with my triggers very well. But by being celibate, I have created new triggers like the TV-Guide or lingerie commercials and I do struggle still overall. Or maybe being P free is creating the new triggers.
I have failed 4 previous times to quit MB and P and each failure, I believe, was because I allowed an occasional MB.
I believe each addict needs to make their own choice and my choice for me is MB will be okay for me. I’ll know that I am ready when I can become aroused without much physical stimulation and no P and no fantasy.
I'm not against MB at all, however. To much of one thing can be a bad thing! P, though, is the one thing that ruins EVERYTHING! I HATE IT! I CAN"T STOP LOOKING AT TIMES!!!!
ok, got rid of some steem ther!
I'll do the whole, "gun powder and match," thing while looking at P, but sometimes, never go all the way! It's like my way of saying, hey, you didn't actually do it, so there's no full guilt! No what I mean?
I just found this site, and it's great! The only problem, it's online! Where do most people view P! And I can't look at this site at work, nor when my girlfriend is around! So, I'm really pushing the petal to the metal!
As for the MB, it's healthy! Some disagree, but it is! PA is not!
Thank you Dominus for the link to that thread. For anyone who hasn't read it, I highly recommend it.
I've been struggling with this topic lately. No question in my mind but that MB is inherently a healthy physical activity. It is widespread through the animal kingdom and mammals of all sorts practice it. Human children practice it as soon as they discover their genitalia, simply because it feels good. Such practice is clearly divorced from the complicated world of mature sexuality.
Soooo... where does that leave us? On a slippery slope, that's where. MB releases neurochemical cocktails that are pleasurable and addictive. Visualization during MB mimics PA. However, there's nothing inherently wrong with visualization or the neurochemicals in our body, either. The real problem here is that we are already addicts. Non-alcoholics can drink without succumbing to an addictive process. Alcoholics cannot. Behaviors that accelerate our descent of the slope are not helping to stay clean and sober.
My helpful sponsor advised me that self control is a good thing to practice if you want to stay clean. It makes sense to me. That said, am I willing to eliminate all MB from my life? Probably not, since I am now living alone and have no opportunity for intimacy with someone else. But I'm trying to see it for what it is. It's not PA, but the connection is there.
Your observation, Coyote Toast, that "we are already addicts" correctly describes my view of the problem. We are damaged in ways that make what may be minimally risky behaviour for someone else, very risky behaviour for us. That allows me to intellectually accept the two positions "MB is normal and OK for most people" and "MB is risky for me and should be avoided" as being non-contradictory. It still leaves me without a viable route to sexual health if I am not in a relationship with someone. Can anyone (male) testify of a long term successful, emotionally satisfying relationship with complete celibacy (neither sexual relations nor MB)?
03-19-2008, 09:21 PM
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