Lack of Awareness?

[TooSensitive]

PAs/SAs, was there ever a time when you were not consciously aware of some of your behaviors? Did you ever a/o automatically without really being aware of it? Were there ever times when you were only aware after the fact? Or only aware b/c your SO pointed out your behavior to you or confronted you about your behavior that she had already witnessed?

Were there ever times when you did not have a conscious memory or awareness of your behavior, and only knew b/c she told you about it? Or b/c there was some kind of evidence you yourself found?

If you were not aware, were you able to transition into having awareness through your recovery work?

I still see and hear my h doing things occasionally, and I don’t know if he is not aware, as he claims, or if he is simply lying to protect himself. This latest incident, he has outright denied doing what I know I heard him doing. He is very convincing, to the point I begin to once again question myself. Is he delusional and therefore believes his own lies? Is he totally unaware of his own behavior? Or is he that good at lying? In the past, there were times when it seemed he was not really thinking about what he was doing, and was doing it out of habit, and as if he wasn’t even consciously aware. This really scares me, if this lack of awareness is the case.

If he is not even aware of his own behavior, what hope is there of change? I know that when he gets irritable, sometimes he is not consciously aware of that. When I tell him about it, he sometimes seems surprised.

I have read on Recovery Nation that it is a transition an addict needs to make, from not really being aware, to becoming aware. If this does not happen, at best, a partner can be “cautiously optimistic”, in their words. We’ve been at this “recovery” thing since Feb. 2009. If he still isn’t aware, that’s pretty bad, in my book.

[samski]

I hate to ask this, but could you be a little more specific - I have a lousy memory, and my SO can recall things that I've said that I don't remember (honestly), but I'm pretty good at remembering what I've seen and done.

A little appropriate elaboration might be helpful to give a meaningful answer.

[burnedout]

I don't know about not recalling a/o with regard to p, but my wife has told me about some of the things that I've said and done during arguments that I have no recollection of. Not violent, but irrational.

[TooSensitive]

Sort of like a nicotine addict who lights up a cigarette without thinking, automatically, out of habit. I have done this on occasion. But at some point, I realize I am smoking that cigarette. So though it may start out to be mindless and on “automatic pilot”, I slip back into reality quickly, and I am totally aware of what I am doing in that moment.

I have seen my h “looking” at other women. I have seen him scan their bodies with his eyes. I have seen him stop on certain body parts. I have seen him “touch” himself while sitting at the computer, or at other times, outside his clothes, but nonetheless, he is unmistakably touching himself, which is the predecessor to mb.

Every single time I have confronted him immediately after I notice what he’s doing, he has told me, “I wasn’t even aware I was doing that”; or, “I thought I had stopped doing that”; or, “I wasn’t doing what you think I was doing”. His CSAT told him I can’t be mistaken every single time.

Sometimes I think my h is in that fog, that haze, that blocks his awareness. Yet even after he’s snapped out of it, b/c I have confronted him, he STILL seems to have no awareness. It’s either that, or he can’t admit to me what I’ve just seen him do. It makes me wonder how many other instances he is in a fog and has no awareness of what he’s doing. Scary stuff either way.

B/c he’s either not aware of his own behavior; or he is, but he lies about that.

If he can slip into this fog so easily when I’m around, and then either not be aware, or lie and pretend he wasn’t aware, then what happens when I am not around? The only difference then is that he doesn’t have to lie on the spot; he only has to lie by withholding.

My h adamantly claims sobriety, yet I still see him (or worse, hear him) a/o in these ways. He denies his behavior, minimizes, downplays. He does his best to convince me that what I saw or heard wasn’t the case. He won’t take responsibility for his behaviors. How can someone, if they claim they weren’t even aware of what they just did?

He’s either truly unaware b/c he’s in that much of a fog; or he is very aware, but won’t take responsibility for himself, or thinks he’s protecting me by lying and saying he wasn’t aware.

ETA: I don't know if he mentally blocks out what he does, or if he lies about what he does.

[HopefulsRock]

Well Toosensitive I don't think you're too sensitive about this... in my opinion that fog your talking about is denial! I never really believed I was that bad either until I was found out about and then once I realized how damaging and hurtful I was there was no forgetting the shame and embarrassment! He needs to own up to it and even if he doesn't think he's that bad he still needs to realize that his behaviors are crushing your emotions!

To answer your questions; Is he delusional and therefore believes his own lies?
Self-delusion perhaps! The action of deluding oneself; failure to recognize reality.

Is he totally unaware of his own behavior?
I think sometimes, Yes! Habits can be a very difficult thing to rid yourself of but he can't keep denying them when they're pointed out to him.

Is he that good at lying?
Sadly Yes! ...at least back when a PA is acting out they would certainly become very skillful liars to protect their dirty secret and not expose the truth ...but it's just another habit that can be beat! The truth needs to owned up to! No more hiding it... there should be nothing to hide anymore once you've accepted to do what ever it takes to rid yourself of this damaging & hurtful addiction!

Best wishes to you Toosensitive and your husband... I hope you both find the strength to get through these flames of addiction!

[Hibiscus]

I asked Caffiend about this and he was very clear about it. Anything he physically did, he was completely aware of in the moment. There are many things he has forgotten about and doesn't remember after the fact when I bring them up. But if confronted in the moment, he said if he denied things in the past, he was outright lying to my face and fully aware of it. When it comes to more subtle behavior (quick sideways glance at someone, etc), he says he is sure there were times in the past where he did it out of habit and was not even aware he was doing it. But he is fully conscious of it now, doesn't engage in it, and if I ever saw him unmistakenly check someone out and he said he wasn't, he would be back to lying and probably on his way back to PA. Because if it ever happened again, it would be a conscious choice made after having a much deeper knowledge & awareness, and would mean he was dismissing everything he's learned AND our marriage. Interestingly, he said he stopped checking women out when he saw another guy doing it and the look on his face...that leering, creepy look some men get. He was kind of horrified and didn't want to be "that guy". He did say there have been occasions when I was mistaken. He understands that still relates back to his history of behavior amd the mistrust that created. In the past, I never believed him when he denied something. But we are now far enough into recovery that we are SO much better at talking about things in the moment, or as soon as possible, so that everything is on the table and resolved as quickly as possible. I am slowly learning to trust his words again. I'm sorry you're still dealing with this. If he is still lying and denying the obvious, that would not feel like real recovery to me. My husband's honesty in admitting what he has done, and being able to talk about it and admit it was a terribly wrong choice, has been the biggest difference this time around. I no longer feel like I am being pacified and distracted. I feel like he is genuinely fighting for our marriage and for himself. I truly wish that for you and your husband as well, TS.

[TooSensitive]

Thank you all for your replies, and thank you Rock and Hibiscus for your in-depth, thoughtful validations.

My h and I talked about this again last night. I feel like I am my wheels with him on this. He insists he no longer has any sexual thoughts when I see him doing certain things. I feel some of his behaviors are obsessive-compulsive. I want to talk about his lack of self-awareness, and denial, or whatever it is, and his lying, when we see our CSAT this weekend. I told him if we do not start talking about his a/o on a regular basis, then he is not going to be able to change his behaviors; and that I can’t keep hiding behind this façade of pretending it’s no longer a problem, b/c clearly, it is. To me, anyway. Just not to him. Some incidents are hurtful, some are disturbing. It is so frustrating and maddening.

He can’t seem to connect the dots between things. He knows he shouldn’t be scanning or looking when out in public, and though sometimes he still does, other times I can see that he is avoiding looking. Same thing with the TV. I told him after all this time and after all we’ve been through, he should know better than to watch The Sopranos, due to some of the very triggering scenes. Yet he gave himself license to watch it, and even played dumb about that, until I point-blank asked him, “What happens when the club scenes come on? Don’t you get triggered?”. He hesitated to answer, but then said, “Yes”. I said, “Thank you”. I said how hard can it be to admit to something I already know to be true? See, it wasn’t that hard, now was it. I showed him, once again, that I am not going to get angry if he tells me the truth. I might be disappointed, and hurt, and any number of other things – but I am not going to be angry. He has admitted to fearing my anger, but I feel he fears my other negative feelings, too.

He now seems to think that adult ADHD is the culprit behind much of his behaviors. I told him that might explain some things, but that isn’t necessarily the only thing. I feel he wants to use it as a distraction ploy away from the addiction. But maybe that factors into why he is still struggling so much. I feel there are several things at play here, that are all tied up in one big ball of a mess. I feel many of his behaviors are also tied in to passive-aggressive disorder (I don’t even know if it is a true disorder). There is so, so much to be worked through. He definitely needs professional help in the form of ongoing therapy, and perhaps he needs to be on meds, too (he now firmly believes he does).

[HopefulsRock]

Sorry for what your dealing with TooSensitive... Let's say he is telling the complete truth about not scanning the crowd or doing inappropriate things behind closed doors... he still needs to see it from your point of view... he needs to understand how it appears to you and how it's making you feel because even if he's totally innocent those are still real feelings that your feeling and need to be dealt with and talked about not put down or discarded! Claiming that he wasn't aware of it or he forgot is not dealing with it... sorry!

As for the ADHD ...I guess we all try to figure out the root of things so we can figure out how we let this happen to us! We want some kind of explanation so we can make sense out of it all? After all are learnings and discoveries it still come down to us... (the PA) to make those changes! Us guys need to learn all we can and then apply are learning's to our actions as if our life depends on it! Actually, life as we know it does depend on it and it needs to be priority number one all the time everyday! So IMO, how we got here or why we're this way doesn't matter it's only a tool for us to use to get better... we can't blame anyone or anything else!

[TooSensitive]

Rock, I totally agree that it does come down to us, no matter what. It’s just that I’ve learned through my support group, as well as through my teenage son, that some people do need that pill to regulate themselves. And if we are battling some unseen demon within, such as a psychological disorder, yet we are unaware of what we are battling, it can create more questions than answers, until we learn just what that demon is. The demon isn’t an excuse to conduct ourselves poorly; the demon is a reason why we struggle so much at times. But once we identify the demon, that can give us the power to overcome that demon, b/c then we know what tools and skills to use and what type of treatment to pursue.

I have bipolar. I regularly attend a mood disorder support group. I believe I am the only member who does not take meds to treat my disorder. One of our group’s guidelines (which are read at the start of every meeting) is that “we all must be accountable and responsible for our own behavior”. We are taught that we cannot use our disorder as an excuse to conduct ourselves poorly. When you break them down, every one of our 11 guidelines goes back to this concept of being accountable and responsible for our own behavior.

My teenage son has ADHD. I fought him going on meds for 4 years, b/c I am anti-meds. I believe we all have what we need within ourselves to modify our behavior and overcome whatever ails us, mentally-speaking, and even in some cases, medically-speaking. I placed my son in several different behavioral modification programs. They only worked temporarily. After a few weeks, he was right back where he was. Then I finally agreed to the meds, but it got to the point where I could not afford them (no health insurance), so though he took them for a few months, he had to come off them again. The problems receded when he was on the meds, and quickly returned when he went off the meds.

Last year, I acquired health insurance for my son again, which allowed me to put him back on the meds again. What can typically be the most difficult year of school for many students, freshman year of high school, turned out to be my son’s best year, both academically and behaviorally. It was the first year of school since kindergarten that he did not get suspended. It was the first year of school that I did not have to spontaneously go down to the school for a behavioral problem. I attribute all this to that medication, as anti-meds as I am.

I had always felt my h had “something” else going on within him, psychologically-speaking. I just didn’t know what. Was it a personality disorder? Clinical depression? Anxiety? A mild form of schizophrenia? He didn’t seem to have bipolar. He also didn’t seem to have ADHD. But after hearing him talk about his belief that he has adult ADHD, and then doing some of my own research, he may not be off base. Adult ADHD presents itself differently than childhood ADHD, so when comparing my son’s behavior to my h’s, I did not make the connection, which is why I had not considered it before. Even though I have believed for several years now that I have adult ADHD, I still could not see much correlation between my h and I. Yet after revisiting the research, I could.

I have learned how to manage myself most of the time without meds, but that does not mean it’s a walk in the park. I have many challenging moments. Both my bipolar and my possible adult ADHD sometimes get in the way of my day. These disorders can hinder you and hold you back from achieving all you are capable of achieving. Some days, I am very productive. Other days, it is an ongoing internal battle.

My teenage son also has been diagnosed with ODD (Oppositional Defiancy Disorder). I have definitely noticed shades of this behavior in my h at times. ODD usually accompanies ADHD.

The difficulty lies in that many of the symptoms of all these disorders overlap. That’s why it takes a psychiatrist to diagnose. My h believes he has ADHD. I told him he may, but he may not. He could have depression or anxiety instead. I told him if you are not properly diagnosed, you may end up on the wrong medication, which could be harmful.

I told him in the end, the meds can be helpful, but they are not a cure-all. A person still needs to learn to be very aware of their behaviors, and also, they need to learn how to modify their behaviors accordingly. I have had this same talk with my son, telling him he cannot blame his behavior on anyone but himself, and that he will sometimes be in situations where he is going to have to work harder at controlling himself, though the medication certainly makes his job easier.

Yes, in the end, it does come down to us. But I have seen that irrational disconnect in my h that sometimes does seem to be out of his control in some way. He does not want to stay on the meds for the rest of his life. But we are both starting to think that taking them at least temporarily may give him that little edge he needs for the time being, to jumpstart him in the right direction.

At first, I was concerned that my h was trying to use this as his scapegoat, and as a distraction. But now I realize that if he has something else going on, that may be the reason why he has not made as much progress as I feel he should have. If he has another challenge lurking within him underneath the surface, that may well be what has held him back. Without proper treatment, and without at least an awareness of some underlying condition, you’re battling an unseen enemy, which can really leave you defenseless.

Knowing what you’re battling is half the battle. B/c then, you can make sense out of things that previously didn’t make sense. You can gain an understanding of your own behaviors. You can gather information. Information, and understanding, is knowledge. We all need knowledge of what’s going on inside us, so that we can then seek the right answers to help ourselves. That knowledge can be empowering, and it can turn our lives around.

Having a psychological diagnosis doesn’t mean we’re weak or defective. It just means we’re different. The diagnosis is only one part of who we are, and with the right tools and information, that diagnosis does not have to define all of who we are in every moment. At times, that diagnosis will feel like a blessing, and at other times, it will feel like a curse. But when it does feel like a curse, that is when we have to look within, and do a lot of self-talk, so that we then have the power to turn ourselves around again, so that we are facing the right direction.

I feel my diagnosis is but one of many things that makes me unique. That is how I choose to look at it, so that it feels more like a blessing than a curse most of the time. It is what has helped me have a different perspective into the hearts, souls, and minds of others. It has given me a greater capacity to empathize with others. It has given me a deeper understanding and appreciation for what makes us tick. It has allowed me to look more deeply into the human psyche. It has allowed me to keep an open mind about most things, and to entertain all possibilities. Not to make excuses, but instead, to find reasons and to gain understanding. It has allowed me to see the beauty and the silver linings in what could otherwise be deemed tragic.

A diagnosis is not necessarily a death sentence. A diagnosis can be the start of a new life. At least it was for me, as well as for my teenage son. Perhaps it will be for my h as well.

My h admitted to still being a sex addict last night. He is not dismissing that. He is not trying to distract from that, as I had initially feared. He only wants answers to what else may be ailing him, so that it does not continue to get in the way of ongoing recovery and in learning how to become a better person. He seems willing to do the work, but it does seem there is something else in the way that is hindering more progress, to some extent. Or at least challenging that progress. We both feel there is some type of roadblock in the way, that we just can’t see. It is invisible, but it is there. Once we know what it is, I feel that will give us more power to overcome whatever it is. It’s kind of hard to fight something, when you don’t even know what that something is.