What did it take to make you see?

[champagnesuppanova]

I am working something through with my BF who is not on TTF and I am hoping that the PAs here can help.

One of the things my BF does is use msn, skype and other instant messaging/chat type programs to webcam with girls - any girl - and his aim is to engage in sexual activity with them.

We have talked about this and I have explained to him that I don't like him doing it and want it to stop and that if he doesn't stop then it is a "deal-breaker" for me. We first had this conversation a while back and he did stop doing it, but then has gone back to it a handful of times which I have made clear I am upset about.

During the course of our most recent conversation, I tried to get him to see it as cheating. He suggested that the fact he is being faithful in real life should be enough for me. He suggested that webcam interaction is different to "real life". I have made plain that it is a one-on-one sexual activity and therefore to me it is cheating. He appears to understand that approach to it and has agreed (again) to stop doing it.

My question is this, as a PA, is this sort of rationalisation of behaviour common and what made you realise that this sort of behaviour (i.e. using webcams) was cheating on your partner?

Thanks for your help guys. I am trying to find a way for him to see how hurtful his behaviour is for me. I have tried "flipping" it and asking how he would feel if I did the same thing. His response varies depending on his state of mind - when he is angry and defensive then he says he doesn't care. When he is calm and open to the conversation he admits that he would not like me doing it. It makes me think that he does understand he shouldn't be doing it but is struggling with putting his understanding into practice. Any feedback on that would also be appreciated.

Thanks again. CSN

[likeafish34]

champagnesuppanova,

This is a difficult one for me as instant messaging/webcaming was not my thing.
My view is that whether or not it's the same as cheating in the real world, it's something that you find offensive and upsetting. That should be enough.

Simon

[Mac]

Hey CSN
That is a quite an interesting post. Your BF's activities are so far beyond any kind of acceptable interaction with another women that I really don't know what to say. I am a firm believer that any kind of sexual interaction with anyone other than your SO is indeed cheating. Anything that he does that takes away from your relationship is unfair to you and IMO unacceptable.
I think that all PA's try to rationalize their behavior to a point, but once a positive recovery gets underway and you are able to start to distance yourself from your addiction, that is when a PA should really start to see things in a proper light. The key to what I am saying is, A PA will never clearly see where he is until he can look back on it. So until your BF can gets clear of this he will continue to rationalize his behaviour
Never change your stance on this CSN, if it feels like cheating to you, it's cheating.

All the best
Mac

[2frustrated]

A deal breaker is a deal breaker. Stand your ground. He obviously doesn't respect you.

[burnedout]

CSN

I had an SO in my early 20s who saw other men in real life and made some very clever, convoluted rationalizations about it. You’d think that, after an experience like that, my empathy for others who’d been cheated on would have kicked in automatically, but it didn’t work like that, for some reason. I don’t know how one develops empathy. Some people always want to test the limits. I think they just have to be told NO loud and clear, and simple.

My SO at the time couldn’t or wouldn’t comprehend how she was hurting me, and I didn’t have the backbone to tell her to stop—I was afraid she’d just leave. I couldn’t comprehend how I was hurting my wife until recently, and your PA can’t seem to comprehend how he’s hurting you. He may have some sense of it, but it sounds like he’s not ready to give up this behavior for you. It could be time for a more direct approach.

I don’t see how Skype or webcams or whatever would be any different from physical contact. The intent is the same, and it takes energy away from your relationship. I say this is your boundary, and I would make it non-negotiable, i.e., take it or leave it, period, end of discussion.

[HopefulsRock]

is this sort of rationalisation of behavior common

Yes, it's very common in an addict who's in denial about the damages and pain this sort of thing does to a relationship and to you! It's a form of P and when he's sneaking off and hiding such behavior it's very real so don't be fooled by his denial statements and rationalizations... it's "REAL" cheating! In my opinion you should stand your ground on the "Deal Breaker" !

Checklist: 14 types of denial


1. Global Thinking
This is attempting to justify something with absolute terms like “always” or “never” or “whatsoever”. It also can be something along the lines of “every guy does this”.

2. Rationalization
This is justifying unacceptable behavior saying things like “I don’t have a problem, I’m just sexually liberated”, or “You’re crazy”, or “I can go months without this, so I don’t have a problem”. Rationalization is telling yourself Rational Lies.

3. Minimizing
This is trying to make behavior or consequences seem smaller or less important than they are saying things like “only a little”, or “only once in a while”, or “it’s no big deal”, or simply telling the story in a better light than it really should be.

4. Comparison
This is shifting focus to someone else to justify behaviors such as “I’m not as bad as…”.

5. Uniqueness
This is thinking you are different or special saying things like “My situation is different” or “I was hurt more” or “That’s fine for you, but I’m too busy”. This one can also be considered Entitlement.

6. Distraction (Avoiding by creating an uproar or distraction)
This is being a clown and getting everyone laughing, having angry outbursts meant to frighten or intimidate others, threats and posturing, and doing shocking behavior that may even be sexual. This can be when we simply blow up upon being confronted hoping that our explosion will draw attention rather than the actual issue.

7. Avoiding by Omission
This is trying to change the subject, ignore the subject, or manipulate the conversation to avoid talking about something. It is also leaving out important bits of information like the fact that the lover is underage, or the person is a close friend of your spouse, or revealing enough information while keeping back the most “dangerous” information that will get you in more trouble.

8. Blaming
This is when you shift blame and responsibility from yourself to another person, and many times this is done unconsciously since in the depth of our being we really don’t want to be held responsible for something. I call this the Adam Syndrome as this is what Adam did in the Garden (Genesis 3) by wrongly blaming Eve for his rebellion. This includes, “Well, you would cruise all night, too, if you had my job”, or “If my spouse weren’t so cold…” or “I can’t help it, the baby cries day and night and makes me nervous”.

9. Intellectualizing
This is avoiding feelings and responsibility by thinking or by asking why. This person tries to explain everything getting lost in detail, rabbit trails, and/or storytelling. This often includes pretending superior intellect and using intelligence as a weapon.

10. Victim Mentality (Hopelessness/Helplessness)
This is where a person says, “I’m a victim”, or “I can’t help it”, or “There is nothing I can do to get better” or “I’m the worst”.

11. Manipulative behavior
This usually involves some distortion of reality including the use of power, lies, secrets, or guilt to exploit others.

12. Compartmentalizing
This is something that almost every addict does. This is separating your life into compartments in which you do things that you keep separate from other parts of your life. This is like a Jekyll and Hyde or a separation of Public and Private life to the point where it is unhealthy driven by thoughts of “If they only knew, then…”.

13. Crazymaking
This occurs when we are confronted by others who DO have a correct perception… we simply tell them that they are totally wrong. We act indignantly toward them attempting to make them feel crazy by simply positing that they cannot trust their own perceptions.

14. Seduction
This is the use of charm, humor, good looks, or helpfulness to gain sexual access and cover up insincerity.

[BrokenHeartedAgain]

He knows it's wrong.. and he's just lying to you and in DENIAL. He isn't ready to stop or change. My H did this to me for 12 years plus. He has made some big realizations this time very different from all the other times. So, this is the only reason i'm here "right now". He told me that before... "yeah I just told you those things to make you stay... but I knew I didn't really mean them." This time he is telling me he sees things very differently... but we will see. I'm basically packed up and ready to go if he doesn't make DRASTIC changes. If I knew then what I know now... I would have left a long time ago.