What makes you think it is not cheating?

[SimplyMe]

What makes you think it is not cheating?

This is a quote from JohnnyD's journal: I know I have hurt her immensely in her mind (Porn is Cheating), but I have never actually been with another woman, or chased other women.

I started this new post here, because I don't see JohnnyD returning to read it. But,I am certain that there are many more PAs that also share this belief.

Well I will tell you why we SOs think it is cheating.

Those are real women that you are watching. I don't understand how people can rationalize that because it is on a screen it is not real. Granted it is a warped reality, but real nonetheless. There is flesh and blood behind it. Those women are your daughters, sisters, mothers, nieces etc. For those of you who have daughters ask yourself what would you think of porn if it were your daughter.

When you look at porn you are chasing other women. I noticed in my checking on my H that he preferred certain ones so he would type her name in the search engine to find the videos she did. This makes it personal.

If you are looking at porn chances are that includes live chat sites, where you can actually interact with them. [B]Interaction involving sexual content makes it even more personal. If you've done this then yes you have been with another women.

It hurts us just the same. It is not in our minds, it is real live hurt. Our hearts ache, we cry real tears, the pain goes deep it messes with our minds. It lowers our self esteem, making us feel ugly and inadequate.

Those of you who are married or have agreed to a monogamous relationship are breaking your vows, your agreement. YOU ARE CHEATING. And the really sad part of it is that a lot of you aren't out somewhere sneaking around, hiding it, meeting them somewhere else. You are bringing them right into your homes, interacting with them right in front of your SO.

[Crisodian]

SM -
Great post. There is another impressive post here, write by an SO on another website, shared by a PA.

Excellent post.

Find peace,
~C~

[astander]

For an SO, this idea that it's "in my mind" is infinitely frustrating. My husband is in agreement that he must stop if we are to remain married, but still has not admitted that he has not forsaken all others. It's almost like he's placating me, doing it "for me," because of my silly little insecurities. drives me nuts.

[Missingus]

Hmm. I don't have much to add as you all have covered pretty much everything I have felt on this topic.

Pretty much the only thing I would add, is that in using P, my H gave what was only supposed to be mine away to thousands upon thousands of other women. I rejected me to use it. He lied to me to use it. When we married he promised that he would be mine, just as I did. He shared the most intimate loving part of marriage with anyone and everyone that caught his eye. It was mine, I deserved to be the one catching his eye, the one he shared those intimate feelings. Yes I know guys view s3x differently... But they still know it's s3x right? Because when your married s3x of ANY kind belongs within the marriage between the spouses.

So when either party defiles those vows, by sharing himself/herself with anyone else, whether it's only in their "mind" or not, is cheating. They are cheating their partner out of what is theirs and theirs alone.

[SimplyMe]

Thanks C,
I was hoping for more responses from PAs here, but looks like this is one of those subjects that has been beaten to death, with no resolution.
My resolve on the subject: If your spouse feels that it is cheating, whether it is a picture, chat, movie etc. then it is cheating in your relationship. Because what hurts your spouse hurts your relationship.

[Crisodian]

SM,
What I have found is - this topic, while not beaten to death but discussed in the past, is hard for PAs to talk about. There's a lot of guilt and shame, hurt and anger, and lots of bad feelings in general once they accept (PAs) that their behavior really is cheating. Once they realize their fantasy world they created, the one where they convinced themselves they were hurting no one, really WAS hurting others, they have a hard time opening up and talking about it.

Not saying it's right... just sharing what I have seen :)

And there are still some who never come over to the light and really see it as "cheating".

But this:

My resolve on the subject: If your spouse feels that it is cheating, whether it is a picture, chat, movie etc. then it is cheating in your relationship. Because what hurts your spouse hurts your relationship.

Sums it up beautifully.

Peace,
~C~

[astander]

If I am honest, it drives me a little crazy when people say, well, if you feel it's cheating then it is. Becuase then, it is put back on me. It's not cheating because in my mind I feel it's cheating. It's cheating because IT'S ACTUALLY CHEATING!!!

Our therapist has actually said something similar in a joint session. And I wanted to come unglued -- because it is not something that is up for debate. It's not destructive because of some kind of weird social perception we SOs have. It's destructive because inherently, we are not made that way. Men aren't made to be able to function in a relationship when looking at so much P, and women aren't made to be able to emotionally deal with the infidelity and betrayal.

It's kind of like when a woman says that she only feels it's cheating when her husband is actually in love with another woman. If it's just physical, and there's no emotion, then she's ok with that. Ok, well that woman might feel that way but she's crazy. That's not the way the world works. Cheating is cheating is cheating, and it's not so because I FEEL that way. It's so because it's so.

[Cupcakemomma]

Cheating is cheating is cheating, and it's not so because I FEEL that way. It's so because it's so.

Damn skippy! You go Astander!!!!:D

[debv]

The bulk of PAs won't touch this one with a 10-foot pole, but then the bulk of PAs don't venture over here and comment in the SO's section anyway. Some do, most don't.

Had a marriage counseling session yesterday. The counselor is an expert in sex and porn addiction. He was trying to convince me that it's not the same as "an affair" and therefore not cheating. I acknowledge it's not the same as an affair, there's no emotional connection there, in fact my H is very open about the fact that he was trying to avoid emotional connection with me or anyone else through his porn use. But it's still cheating, the same as picking up prostitutes. Exactly the same, since the women in porn are, by definition, prostitutes (selling sex for money).

DW defended my position, since he shares it. But is it any wonder that PAs think it's not cheating, if their counselors probably tell them so? (This counselor is DW's personal counselor too.) The counselor says it wasn't cheating it was an "occasional escape." I told him that's minimizing the gravity of what DW did, and sounds like he had some nice afternoons at the spa. I wouldn't hear it, and DW stuck up for me. Almost a repeat of the situation where we ended up switching marriage counselors in March.

It amazes me that men can be so thick-headed about this, that even a counselor specializing in sex and porn addiction wouldn't view it as cheating.

[OpenEyes]

Hmmm, well, I guess I should tackle this one, since the rest of the pa's aren't coming in here.

When I was in the grips of PA and did not understand my addiction, my thought process was "what she doesn't know, won't hurt her". Translation, deep down, I know I am hurting hurt, but want to feed my addiciton.

On Discovery, realization, we try to understand we are in an actual addiction, we are trying to understand the hurt inflicted and we use the 14 types of denial as best we can, especially the rationalization and minimazation. "I never touched or interacted with another woman", "I only downloaded and did not get involved", "I never had s#x with another woman" are all things I have seen pa's say and I myself said the first one. As I understand it now, I was trying to minimize the hurt I had inflicted, trying to downplay my own shame, and trying to avoid my responsibility in my wife's hurt.

Months down the road, I can now say to my utter disbelief, I cheated on my wife. I was unfaithful. I looked at images of other women, I used those images for M or to at least get turned on, and Those activities should be only for my wife. I made a life long commitment to her and I failed.

She has forgiven me, but not forgotten the hurt. She will never forget it, and I am still coming to grips with it, at times. Crisodian wrote somewhere that at times the best way to address the problems caused by PA is not in one huge confrontation but, in small doses. That has worked best for me, in understanding my guilt, shame and responsibility in my wifes hurt. I cheated on her with P.

I thank God for my wife, she has an incredible heart. She still loves me and I am ever so grateful.