Being economically independent

[Hopeful59]

Recently H and I traveled with three other couples and I was shocked to find out that I was the only woman who (1) worked full time (we are all couples with grown children) and that (2) I was the only woman who could support herself. I guess being a stay at home wife works for happily married couples, but one of these women has had frequent problems with her spouse (including drug and p*rn use) and she knows she's stuck because she can't support herself.

Honestly it seems sad to me that women still look at men as their means of support. Money IS power. When I found out about my H's P*rn use, it was not an idle threat when I told him to quit or I was gone. I realize that money is not the answer to p*rn addiction, but it makes me ill to hear about women in desperate situations who feel stuck because financially they are tied to their spouses.

Please girls... educate yourselves and learn to take care of yourselves.

[Steelerfan27]

Interesting concept. Feeling a distinct need to be economically independent presumes that your spouse will inevitably let you down. It means that you don't trust your spouse to care for you and that you're basically going into a marriage or other relationship with this lack of trust as a foundation. How can you begin a relationship based on that distrust? How can one possibly hope to have a close relationship if there's always a barrier up around you that says "I will only trust you to a point" or "I will only allow myself to be exposed to a certain extent".

That being said, I also see the side of it where...well all of us PA's on this site have fulfilled that model of disappointment and breaking our SO's trust. So in pretty much every relationship on this website is an instance where a PA has broken the trust of his or her spouse.

So when you go into a relationship or marriage, should you place a priority on protecting yourself from possible damage from your new SO? Or should you leave yourself exposed, vulnerable to your new SO, being more trusting. This is pretty much the whole dilemma of whether of not you should you get a Pre-nuptial agreement (if you have assets to protect). Some spouses see it as going into the marriage with an intent to get divorced down the road. Some see it as a discrediting of the marriage vows you take.

I don't really think that there is a good answer to this. I honestly don't think anyone should go into a relationship and be totally dependent on their SO, financially or otherwise. Both partners should contribute in their own way. You're both equals, or should be. I also don't think you should go into a deep relationship like marriage while holding something back all the while. That's just not what marriage is and it will just never work if that's the prevailing attitude in your marriage.

In my opinion, a spouse can not protect themselves from hurt or pain. There is no way around it. If your husband or wife is addicted to P, and you find out about it...it will hurt. It will cause huge emotional damage. It could wreck your life and the life of those around you as a result (kids). Those are the real potential consequences of a PA's sin. There is no insurance policy against this, no way to protect yourself from this other than to not be in a marriage in the first place. It sucks. Maybe I'm just speaking out of ignorance, but I really think that these consequences, even the financial ones, are just not things that you can or should hedge your bets against. In marriage you really have to be all in. If you're all in and your PA husband is not, well, then there will be bad consequences that will hurt you. It's not your fault, you loved and gave with all your heart. But if your new husband doesn't have a problem with PA or anything else, it would be pretty sucky to go through your marriage holding stuff back from him.

I don't know if I'm making a ton of sense, but I guess I'm just trying to say that despite the risks, it's better in my opinion to love your spouse whole heartedly and to trust completely than to enter a marriage with reservations already.

[burnedout]

I agree with SteelerFan that both partners have to commit totally. I'm obviously not problem-free and neither is my wife, and you have to be committed to helping each other through whatever comes up. But you have to protect yourself as well, or else you'll be no good to anybody. Some addicts may see commitment as permission to keep feeding their addiction. They make fools out of their partners.

Saying that such-and-such behaviors are a deal-breaker, and that you are prepared and capable of living on your own, might just give the other person the incentive he or she needs to change. That doesn't mean you're still not committed to helping your partner. I have a friend whose husband has a drinking problem, and he finally had his driver's license taken away and got sent to jail for driving drunk. She divorced him and made sure he didn't have access to any of her assets. But she still cares about him and wants to see him do better. There just came a point when she had to save herself. I don't blame her at all. He was totally out of control, and divorce and jail may turn out to be the wake-up call he needed.

[Hopeful59]

I still think it's wrong to be totally dependent on one's spouse for your survival. My DIL, for example, quit college when she and my son got engaged because "she found something better". They have no children and they are financially strapped; yet, she chooses not to work. It's their business, so I stay out of it, but I do know my son is under a LOT of stress related to their finances. If something happens to my son or his job, she will be out on the street or at the mercy of any relative who will take her in. IMO, that is pathetic. I could also point to my cousin who found herself a widow with an infant at the age of 22. She had never worked a day in her life. You just never know what life has in store and a woman who doesn't "hedge her bets" is a fool. I don't view financial dependence on one's spouse as evidence of love. Actually I see it as more of a selfish attitude (putting all the financial responsibility of the relationship on the other spouse). We're supposed to be a team, right? Each giving 100%? Unfortunately, sometimes the partnership goes bust and it is a woman's best interest to be able to fly solo, if necessary.

My point is this: if a woman can support herself, she is less likely to stay in an abusive relationship. It's not about "holding back" from your spouse. I give my marriage 100+ percent in every way. I definitely pull my weight, have made substantial sacrifices to be part of this marriage. Further, I did not go into this marriage with the intent to "get divorced down the road". However, I have found through experience that to put total trust and faith in one's spouse is a set up for heartache. That is just a fact. You CAN trust too much; people are flawed and they will let you down. My total faith and trust is in GOD, not my spouse.

I could be out of line here, but you sound like a PA who resents the fact that people in his life no longer trust him.

[Charly22]

I am feeling torn after reading both sides of this opinion. I agree with SF, about comparing it to a pre-nup, and going in with expectations of things falling apart. But I also agree with Hopeful in that a woman should be able to stand on her own IF NEED BE.

Just this morning, I was reflecting on how, from a very young age, I allowed myself to put my husband on this pedastool, and never questioned his opinions and thoughts, and always tried to mold myself into his thoughts and opinions, and never questioned his thought processes. I always allowed his thoughts and opinions to sway my own. It is like I had him in this "he can do no wrong" perception. And it took me being able to realize....duh...the man is human.....how wrong was it of me to place my whole existence into his hands. How wrong was it of me to expect him to be perfect. How wrong was it of me to allow my own happiness to rest in someone else's hands.....can you imagine the pressure one would feel if they knew that your happiness depended on them? Is that wrong to put that kind of expectation and pressure on another?

I don't believe I was wrong to love my husband that much. I don't believe it was wrong to strive for never being hurt. I don't believe it was wrong that I expect our relationship to bring me joy and happiness. BUT...I do believe now that I was wrong in how I went about it. I was wrong to depend emotionally so much on him. Because he is human too, and he became weak and broken and in turn needed my hand to hold this time.

We are both equal.

I can stand on my own if I had to.

But life is so much better with two contributing.

So, I agree that being financially independent, or not being financially independent is a factor. Same way I was emotionally dependent became a factor.

It is better to be able to say "I'm not here because I need to be, I am here because I WANT to be"

[Steelerfan27]

You CAN trust too much; people are flawed and they will let you down. My total faith and trust is in GOD, not my spouse.

I could be out of line here, but you sound like a PA who resents the fact that people in his life no longer trust him.

You raise a good point about how people are flawed and trusting in people will probably lead to disappointment. Nobody's perfect, therefore we will inevitably be disappointed, let down, by our all-to-human spouses. Only God is totally reliable. I get that and it makes sense. Looking at it from that point, maybe it really is stupid to go into a marriage with the ideal of being totally open and trusting. Maybe that's just a naive ideal that only ends in heartbreak. Maybe there really have to be some boundaries that you keep. I dunno. But I think that we can both agree that this isn't the ideal. The ideal is a totally trusting, open relationship...i.e. our relationship with a never changing God. We should want the same type of relationship with our spouse, except that I guess this just isn't usually possible with two sinful humans.

FYI, the situations you're mentioning above don't seem to relate to this topic. It's one thing to say a woman needs to contribute financially to a marriage or to be able to help sustain a family in times of need like you're mentioning (or for that matter to be a primary bread winner, I'm not from the 50's), it's a completely different thing for a woman or any spouse to be educated or employed or somehow insured with the goal of protecting herself from some future break-up of the marriage. I'm completely in agreement that in a marriage both partners should work together to provide finances, to take care of the home, kids and dinner. I don't think that a man or a woman should work or gain employment with the goal of being financially independent in the event that something happens in their marriage down the road. That shouldn't be a starting point in a marriage. Just have a boyfriend of girlfriend if you both don't actually want to commit and trust each other. Also, there really is no right way for a couple to take care of finances. One person could earn all the money, or both could work jobs. A spouse can carry their weight in other areas, not just financially. There's absolutely nothing wrong or foolish about being a stay-at-home mom. Sure something can go wrong. Sadly, something can ALWAYS go wrong no matter what preparations us simple humans make.

Do I resent that others don't trust me? Since I really don't have many relationships except for with my wife where trust would be an issue, I'll focus on that. Well, I know my wife has lost trust in me. While our relationship isn't bad like it was, I'm honest enough to say that I know she reserves something from me. She has for years, just as I have been a PA for years. Maybe it's entirely a consequence of my PA. I tend to think that it's most likely a combination of factors (or is that me ducking the blame?). I know that trust has to be earned, and that there's a real possibility that she will always hold something back since I hurt her so much. I don't know if I resent the distrust or not right now. On the surface I don't think I do. I think I understand where her distrust comes from, but I don't really think I can resent her for it. I understand that what I've done is hurtful and damaging. I accept this as a consequence of my specific actions, and of the more normal bumps and bruises we accumulate in any relationship. In light of all this trauma, I would say that I'm more than happy with how we have grown since. I guess I don't think I'm resentful. Of course, maybe I do harbor some resentment deep down. Maybe part of me is still defensive, feels held down by my lust for P and doesn't like the restrictive boundaries of a marriage. I wont deny that there is probably something along these lines deep, deep down. But that's just my humanness. I'm not perfect, I'm going to want to do things that aren't right. Fact of life, and it will never change. I can learn to control it though, and that's what will earn me trust again.

It is better to be able to say "I'm not here because I need to be, I am here because I WANT to be"

Well said!

[cvanden]

Huh. As usual, very interesting and thought provoking insights.

I do not believe that being able to care for oneself is assuming the marriage will fail or somehow undermines it. The decision to work or not work is a personal one that a couple makes and sometimes has to reevaluate off and on throughout a marriage. There are pluses and minuses to both. Heck, more and more men are even choosing to stay home while their wives become the main bread winner.

Personally I started our marriage assuming I would work, I had a career in mind...one that I was extremely passionate about. My path took me down a different road and I'm just now (15 yrs later) training for that career. I wished for many years that I could stay home with our children but my income was necessary for the way of life we had chosen to live. I was naive in thinking we were powerless to make a different choice.

Plus working isn't always about a paycheck....sometimes it is about personal fulfillment.

The chance that your marriage may fail isn't the only reason one should be ABLE to be independant! Your partner could be laid off, could become ill, injured or worse...pass away.

Here is my personal heartfelt belief. I believe that no one is ever STUCK. There are always options. Now, those options may not be the most comfortable but they still exist. Everyone, men and women alike should be able to care for themselves.

The real crime is when someone gets it into their heads that they aren't capable.

-C

[WifeOfNewLifeMan]

The real crime is when someone gets it into their heads that they aren't capable.

Amen! I totally agree with this statement.