You think about WHAT?!

[Enid]

Hello everyone! I haven't posted anything in a long time, but feel like the opinions of others is needed right now. A little background - my boyfriend struggles with PA and has been working extremely hard at overcoming his addiction. He dedicates his Thursdays to support groups and he calls his group members when he needs help. He's been doing an awesome job and I couldn't be more proud of him.

Currently, I have been struggling with my own issues in regards to my negative body image. I feel like since the discovery of his PA my body image has spiraled downward and out of control. I obsess over every "negative" thing and have become very insecure. It became apparent to me this weekend that I need to reach out and get help and rid myself of these negative thoughts.

I recently, in passing, asked my boyfriend what he thinks about when he masturbates. His answer turned into a huge argument which has now caused us to be "on a break" from each other. I probably shouldn't have asked him what he thinks about during his own time, but lately I've been so insecure about myself that I just had to know what was on his mind. I am scared that since he's not looking at P that he's replacing his needs with excessive masturbation, so I wanted to know what he thought about.

He's always painfully honest with me and he responded that he thinks about real women (celebrities, girls he sees on the street and more devasting - our friends). Unforunately, my views of masturbation have apparently been skewed as I thought the majority of people just thought about faceless bodies doing sexy things. I guess I never got the memo that the majority of guys actually do think about real women. I really feel like the rug has just been pulled out from underneath me.

What's confusing to me is, if a guy has the need to masturbate and think about everyone except his girlfriend then what is the point in relationships? From what I've read it sounds like thinking about other women is a way for a guy to achieve his desire to have his varietieis in a safe way without actually cheating. This is something I just don't get at all. If guys really need that much variety in their lives then why are they in relationships? Why are any of us in relationships? I devote 100% of myself to my boyfriend and I never think about other guys in that manner. I honestly feel like even though he hasn't actually done anything, that he's still cheating on me...he's a mind cheater, if you will.

It makes me paranoid because now I worry about going anywhere with him - we see a pretty girl and it's like "is he going to masturbate to her later?" We hang out with friends and I'll be questioning any look he gives one of them or a tone he speaks and I'll interpret that as - "oh she must be the one he masturbates to."

It's horrible and I don't know what to think. Obviously I need to work on my own insecurities and foster and more positive body image. But even if I have that, how do I come to terms with the fact that he thinks about other REAL women in a pleasurable manner. What's worse, I think he masturbates more than we actually have sex. To me, that says alot.

[Crisodian]

Enid,
First, welcome back. :) Second, OUCH. :(

You're going through what a lot of us as SOs really have a difficult time coming to terms with - the negative self-image we develop due to P, and the thoughts in our own mind of what our PAs think about during their use of MB.

I'm not going to sugar coat. To me, from what you are sharing, it sounds like your BF still has a problem. If he is concentrating on others during MB, especially women he may cross paths with on the street, it sounds like he is still objectifying women as a whole. Part of PA is retraining the brain to have healthy thoughts about women. To me, from what you shared, it sounds like he stopped the P, but stopped the recovery right there. Just my 2 cents from what you shared.

It sounds like you are on the right path for yourself working on your own self-image issues. Good for you. That is a huge first step. Shedding the body negativity we feel as SOs, thanks to the airbrushed T & A that is P, is important for all of us. It's hard, though. Especially for those who had body image issues before the P discovery. Try to remember that you are beautiful, smart, funny and secure in who you are. No picture on a page can take that away from any of us.

Taming the brain, our own brain, to come to terms with what our PAs were (and still may be) conjuring in their imagination for MB, that's a challenge. Some SOs come to terms with it because their PAs stop MB. My H did. And I think, for me personally, the only reason I was able to get past his imaginary "friends" was that they exited our lives completely. Because, like you, if I had to wonder every time we were out, or met a friend, if he was thinking about her to MB, I would have needed a labotomy. I would never have been able to deal with it.

On a positive note, he is very open with you if he felt comfortable enough to be completely honest about what is going through his head. While no small comfort as to WHAT he is thinking about, at least you know. There are many SOs that still struggle to get their PAs to open up about anything, lest of all what is on their mind.

I think at this point, you need to decide what you can deal with. Can you deal with the thoughts you are having about what is running through your mind, or HIS mind for that matter? Can you come to terms with this is something that may never go away if he doesn't see it as a problem and address it?

Have you expressed to him exactly what you have expressed to us here? That you feel this is still cheating, and that his thoughts are inapropriate? About how you feel when you go somewhere and what "might" be running through his mind for personal use later?

Make sure you do something nice for yourself today.

Find a path to peace (and chocolate never hurts either :) )
~C~

[Enid]

Thank you for the reply Crisodian. I truly need others opinions on this one. I have expressed my feelings to him so he knows how I feel. He also received guidance from his support group and I don't necessarily know the specific outcome but it sounds like his group members put him the position of "right." When asked if he had spoken to his group members he very positively stated "yes I did and I'm glad about it" as if to throw something in my face.

I am afraid he doesn't see this as a problem at all. And I don't want to control what he thinks about. A friend of mine put it in a nice way by saying that in a way the women that he thinks about are in fact "faceless"...because essentially they are only serving a purpose for about 10 minutes and then they are gone. Then he comes back to me. I like thinking about it that way, but am afraid that won't last or is not realistic.

I mean from what I've read, guys thinking about real women with masturbating is extemely common. But for me I guess it doesn't make it right just because everyone does it. But I don't want to be the controlling, insecure girlfriend either.

Are there any guys that can advise here?

[Life-lies-trust]

Erid,
I completely understand your feelings on this issue. I am still waiting for DG to come to me and explain what he has done. I am trying to not be controlling, invasive, or demanding of information. For me your BF is willing to be open with you. For me I do not want to have to DRAG everything out of him to have answers.

Hug yourself today because you are a good loving person.

This is not you but him who cheats in his mind. And yes I see it the same way. If I am there and willing why the H did he need fantasy in his mind and his hand. I'm not sure any PA can give their SO an answer that really makes any sense to us.

[artguy34]

I mean from what I've read, guys thinking about real women with masturbating is extemely common. But for me I guess it doesn't make it right just because everyone does it. But I don't want to be the controlling, insecure girlfriend either.

Are there any guys that can advise here?

Enid,

I'm going to open myself up and be totally blunt. IMO it is NOT normal for guys to MB to real women. In my case, I was exposed to P at a young age. (9 yrs old) So to me it was always fantasy and never reality. Just like pretending to be a superstar baseball or basketball player while playing in the school yard. We as boys pretend a great many things. Unfortunately, I used the P-fantasies as a crutch to help me handle bad situations in my life.

You see, to me, P was just actors and actresses pretending to enjoy what they were doing. I wont lie, it was arousing for the most part, but some of the stuff was so wierd we learned to ignore it and bypass it. Hence, we become desensitized to it. Now fast forward, years later and relationships later, I am a married man, so when the stress in my life got bad, I resorted to the fantasy world. Never once did I tell myself that I needed to stop because I am hurting my wife. I was so wrapped up in my own selfish needs that I did what I had to do to protect what I felt was mine. And sadly, it was the hardest lesson I had to learn in my life.

But in all honesty, I never fantasized about friends g/f or other women I'd see on the street because it wasn't in my realm of "fantasy". Heck, with me and my friends growing up, we had a rule amongst ourselves. We swore we would never even date someone's ex-girlfriend because we thought that was crossing the line. And if someone did, they would get their butts kicked.

I'm not trying to justify what I did, cause I know now that it was wrong, but just trying to give you a look inside my PA mind while growing up.

I hope this helps a little?

AG

[Daniel]

Enid,

I second the opinions already stated, and would build on Crisodian's point about the recovery stopping cold at the part where you "had a problem" -his P. So P use stops and MB continues...

MB itself is a complicated issue.

Some see MB as pefectly normal.

Some see it as a no-no.

Some recovering PAs (here at TTF) have had their P-use and MB so intertwined during their slavery, so entangled, that when the P had to go (for whatever reason -discovery by SO or felt life was being wasted at a computer) then the MB had to go to. This is the most common position.

Other recovering PAs maintain an model of "once my P-use is removed", the obessive-compulsive aspect, etc., etc., is under control, then I may return to a "healthy MB" in whatever form that may take in their specific situation.

I applaud your BF's honesty.

The key piece of information I would want to know is: "you USED TO MB to our friends, random people, etc., OR that is what you DO NOW?"

If this is something he did in the past, even immediate past, then it's not so bad (the past cannot be changed etc.)

But if this is something he currently practices and says it's OK and says his group says it's OK... Then we have a serious problem of the Mind.

Post-P use and recovery is very much about a renewing of the mind, a changing of the way we think about certain things, and an honest ongoing effort to be clean of thought in a strong effort to flush the garbage out of our synapses.

Daniel

[debv]

My PA stopped MB when he stopped using P. In fact, he was working through a recovery program that insisted on a 60-day celibacy period to allow his brain chemicals to rebalance. That was fine with me, because I didn't want him looking at me or touching me. It's been 9 months now, and we're still on that celibacy period, my decision, because there's exacerbating circumstances involving my history of s3xual violence against me and his use of violent P that just hits me way too close to home, that I can't stomach. He still isn't MB'ing after so long because it is so tied to the P that he would conjure up P images to MB and it would be just like he were still using.

Just my personal situation.

[debv]

You don't need to have the stuff in front of you if it's implanted in your mind. As you point out, it's as if it were still there.

City Fool, I think this is why this addiction is so tough to break. It's completely different from substance abuse, or even gambling or food addictions, because the stuff that can alter your brain chemical balance is in your brain. You're carrying your "drug" around with you, inside you, all day, every day.:-<

[debv]

CF, that's not absurd logic at all, it's actually physiologically correct. The brain creates the chemicals it uses to get high with a P/SA based on what the person sees or imagines. Anyone who's ever had that rush of desire just thinking about their SO knows it's true.

[fishingbackwards]

Hi Enid.
I haven't been here in a while but your story/question is right on the top of my mind as well. My stbx showed me an e-mail he sent to a previous escapade (a swinger he did while her H took pictures) where he told her he often thought of her while he was with me. This e-mail was sent 6 months into our marriage, I did not see it until 9 months later. This was the beginning of the end for me. A couple of weeks later I walked in on him mb with his laptop, he left when I expressed my feelings and though he asked to come back a few weeks later I said no, we have continued to see one another but I filed for divorce after the fiasco concerning our tax return, he was working on his addiction, had actually taken the initiative, but has recently gone back to mb and p because I apparently am not "meeting (his) needs".

I hate the p but the idea of him mb with the image of a real woman, a woman who has sat at my table and eaten the meal I prepared, a woman he has several photos of in the act with him, is so repulsive to me that I don't know If I can stand to have him touch me again. I have not asked if he looks at those photos. I don't want to know the answer. The fact that he still has them is enough. He claims he has been "faithful" to our marriage. I strongly disagree.