Why does P equate to infidelity, or does it?

[debv]

It is cheating. Interesting since this just came up in someone's journal, and I mentioned that it's cheating since it's intimacy with himself and pictures, s3x outside the marriage bed.

I was corrected to something I still believe, that the women are in fact real to the PA. The program DW was using when he first started to quit P explained it that the brain reacts to the visual stimulation of P combined with the hormonal effects of MB to "believe" that the s3x is real. It's a similar effect to watching Omnimax or 3D movies - when something comes at you, you duck instinctively, because your brain is not distinsguishing the pictures from reality, and reacts as though the danger were real. Well, the PA's brain reacts as though the women are real.

I'm just done having this argument, because despite the fact that DW is the one who taught it to me, he no longer believes it, his new counselor says it's fantasy not reality. Still wrong, and still infidelity, but not "real."

Oh, and DW insists that he hasn't had "an affair" because he didn't have an emotional connection with the women. That doesn't matter to me. He didn't want an emotional connection, and used P to avoid having an emotional connection to me. It's the same as though he had gone out and paid prostitutes, or picked up one-night stands. It's infidelity, whether it's "an affair" or not.

[WifeOfNewLifeMan]

cityfool said it exactly:

"To me, and perhaps only to me, that places the SO, a flesh and blood real person on a level lower that a photograph."

Yes. That is what is so painful.

[everlight]

CityFool - I'm so sorry that you feel that way. This addiction can be so terrible. I think we PAs often don't understand the hell of others in our lives. I wish hope for you.

And I do agree that P is cheating in a way. To me, it isn't that there are other women involved. There aren't. There are only images of women. Many PAs (this was certainly true with me) never looked at the same image twice, we could only be satiated by something now. I forgot about the women I looked at once I was done.

The problem is that these images of women are giving toxic intimacy to PAs that is replacing normal intimacy with SOs. That to me is cheating. It's hard for PAs to understand this at first because our first rationalization is "they aren't real." Those women in the pictures aren't real to us, of course. But the addicting intimacy they give us that takes away from SOs is certainly real and it is certainly cheating.

[WifeOfNewLifeMan]

Let's broaden the definition of P.
Old P- magazines, movies.
New P- internet, adult "friend sites", chatting, webcamming, sexting.

I might have had a hard time considering a Playboy as cheating. I have no problem considering chatting, phone sx, and interactive webcams as cheating.

So, let's not think narrowly of P, because P has a much broader scope. PAs try to think "well, my hands don't touch another person". But come on, if I was talking to some guy at work about sx and what we want to do together, my husband would have NO PROBLEM defining that as cheating. Sadly, he was unable to turn the microscope around on himself.

[everlight]

Those are very fair points that I forgot about. I never actually met any women in online chat rooms or anything like that. I agree it's definitely cheating. Interacting sexually with real people rather than simply looking at images or movies is indisputably cheating IMO. Thank you for bringing it up.

The reverse example is a good thing to bring up to your husband. It's not often we PAs have the tables turned.

Let's broaden the definition of P.
Old P- magazines, movies.
New P- internet, adult "friend sites", chatting, webcamming, sexting.

I might have had a hard time considering a Playboy as cheating. I have no problem considering chatting, phone sx, and interactive webcams as cheating.

So, let's not think narrowly of P, because P has a much broader scope. PAs try to think "well, my hands don't touch another person". But come on, if I was talking to some guy at work about sx and what we want to do together, my husband would have NO PROBLEM defining that as cheating. Sadly, he was unable to turn the microscope around on himself.

[fishingbackwards]

City Fool, the image of the older couple holding hands somehow manages to bring both tear and a smile.....My first husband died and I am in the process of divorcing my second. I am about to turn 52. I figure I am going to go "out" alone but then again not alone as I can sometimes feel love and caring from all around me. And I believe we are here on this planet to learn how to care. Every bit of progress towards love is a success.

When my stbx told me he did not remember any of the p he viewed I laughed but it did not really make any difference. The most very infuriating part of his game though was that he insisted he would not be using p if I was giving him what he needed.

Sorry dude. You must be mistaken. That one is not mine.

[debv]

My counselor asked me why I think P is cheating yesterday, and I've been thinking about it (and a variety of other P-related topics that have melted my brain) ever since.

No, P does not involve touching another human being. But the ex-governor of NY was caught in a hotel room with a prostitute who he paid to to things but he never touched her, and vice versa. But it was still cheating. No one questioned that.

No, there was no relationship with the women, DW doesn't know if he saw any more than once (but given the amount of use over 14 years he said he had to have, though he wasn't aware of it), but the guy who goes out on the street and hires different prostitutes, or the guy who goes to bars and has one-night stands, is cheating. No one questions that.

When someone MBs with P, it is s3x. It is not s3x with a live human being, but it is s3x that is performed outside the marriage (or relationship as the case may be). When you add the purported need for images of women in order to maintain the ability to MB, and assuming those women are not the SO, that makes it cheating. It is s3x that requires the presence of a woman, other than the SO, whether it be pictures, videos, or solely imagination. The presence of another woman makes it cheating.

Above and beyond that, there is secrecy involved. No PA advertises to his SO that he is about to go MB to P. He knows damned well she isn't going to like it, but he does it anyway, lying or waiting till she's asleep or sneaking in any number of other ways to find a way to have that s3x which requires the presence of a woman or women not his SO. The sneaking, the lying, the secrecy, and the blatant disregard for his SO's feelings make it cheating.

[DudeWaffle]

A great post quoted from another PA recovery web site forum (I hope the copy/paste is not frowned upon). All of us PA's need to read/reread/memorize and truly believe this. The poster, an SO, is responding to a comment by "Rich" in which he says "On the one hand, I didn't cheat on her in 'real life', but on the other, I know that it does not matter."


Most of that stuff sounds good rich, but there is still a lie here because you did cheat on her in "real life". YOU were really present, and YOU were really cheating. Your heart, your body, your mind, and your soul where really involved. What part of YOU wasn't there in "real life" with your p g/fs? I think I know what you mean in that you didn't "touch" another womans flesh, but that doesn't mean that what you did wasn't in "real life". Hanging on to false perceptions like this one will keep you stuck, because you are still devaluing the fact that the p girls are REAL, and you are real too, and you were really using them in REALITY. The idea that it's just occuring in fantasyland is the lie, because there is no such place as fantasyland. That idea that it was just a fantasy in your mind, is a p lie. Whatever was happening in the acts you watched, really happened, it wasn't fantasy. And when you viewed it, and used it for sexual purposes, you became a participant to it, in REAL LIFE. You weren't approaching it as if you were going to just watch others have sex, which is gross enough, but if this is going to be the honest thread, you're going to have to get honest about what was going on in your head at the time, minus the miminizing lies. SHE wasn't there in the flesh, but you were, and therein lies the truth, the rub, the REAL LIFE, parts of it. You're p g/fs were REAL ENOUGH to YOU, that you sought them out in lieu of your wife. Isn't that closer to the truth than your "not in real life" version.

I know it's hard to accept this truth, that what you did you did in "real life". It might have been under the guise of it occurring only in fantasyland but that is the p lie, not the FACTs of the matter. The facts of the matter are that in your mind you were being with those women. And your heart and soul went along for the ride, albeit in a suppressed condition. Your body was involved too, and you were "bonding" with p, rather than you wife. It it wasn't happening in "real life" then it wouldn't hurt us in our hearts and souls, ya know? You aren't just flesh, and they aren't just pixels. You are a whole person, heart, mind, body, and soul and thus all your parts go where you go. Just because a user only uses his flesh parts, and pornified mind parts, that doesn't mean his heart and soul doesn't go along for the ride. They do, and that's how they get damaged. Because a user has to turn off, or ignore what should be their input in order to p with this sort of perceived immunity. But that is the symptom. Thinking it's "not real" is the symptom, it is the lie, it is at the core what the minimizing, and of the objectifying so if you're going to get honest, you are going to have loose these lie based differinations. You're mind is compartmentalized by these lie based walls basically, and you have to loose the lies to break down those compartmental walls, and rebuild them based on truth instead of lies this time. Stop minimizing it. Stop trying to perceive it as if it weren't cheating in this way or that way. There is no "good way" to cheat, just like there is no "good way" to p. One way is not "better than" other ways, it's just that there are different ways to cheat, but they all occur in "real life". And the consequnces are the same or worse, but the consequnces of p cheating are not less painful than the consequences of flesh cheating. And when we think they are then we are sicker than when we know there really isn't any differences spiritually. When we're trying hold on to these "not really cheating" views, then we are not embracing what Jesus had to say about it. We're still thumbing our noses at him, trying to view it from behind self serving man made lenes and falling for tricks of the devil. To look upon a woman in lust is to commit adultry with her. That's what the Bible says. It doesn't say it's okay so long as you percieve that it doesn't happen in "real life". If you are involved then it is in your "real life". The p g/f might not have been in the flesh in front of you, but your mind wasn't perceiving it as if she "wasn't there", was it?

You think we care whether she was "there" or not? Our problem is not what all the other ppl on earth do, as there will always be fools, rather the problem is what YOU were choosing to do, as far as your wife is concerned. We're you awak while you were looking and using em? You didn't do it in a dream like state, or while sleep walking per se, that would be occuring in "fantasy". But if you did while awake, that was happening in your real life, and you were cheating on your real wife, with REAL other women, and their REAL body parts, although they were likely airbrushed. So if you are going to get honest you are going to have to unfantasyland yourself, and unfantasyland your p g/fs, and unfantasyland your wife. You have to loose the lies that suggest that some of what you choose only occured in fantasyland because ALL of it actually occured in reality.

[Mefree]

Wow, that one threw me for a loop. What insight.
I'm gonna go think about stuff now.

[City Fool]

But come on, if I was talking to some guy at work about sx and what we want to do together, my husband would have NO PROBLEM defining that as cheating. Sadly, he was unable to turn the microscope around on himself.

That's known as a "Double Standard" WONLM. Only one of the many weapons of denial in a man's arsenal.

And I've seen worse cases. I had a friend who married a stunning gal and the night before they were married he had casual s*x with another woman. He had always been a player and marriage didn't stop that or even slow it down. She worked in a different town and after three years, she met a guy and Charley found about it and went nuclear. Was going to hunt the guy down and shoot him, etc.

Cheating is in the mind of the cheater. "I love my wife, this is just s*x."

I've heard that so often it makes me want to hurl.

There was a cool line in another post; "When's (paraphrasing) the last time I heard anything good about men?"

It's true. The male culture in this country is based on the double standard. In the work place (Glass ceiling.) at home and just about anywhere you care to look.
Of course there are good fathers and husbands who live and breath for their families and their respect and love place them outside of cheating. But sadly, still in the range of PA.
Can a man form an emotional attachment to a P image? Beyond a doubt. Don't ask me how. It happens. And that takes away from the partner he made a commitment to when they were married. Using P as nothing more than a s*xual substitution is cheating if a PA has a relationship.
I've been crazy about a certain model/actress for years. When I was married, I told my wife I was. I had no illusions about running off with this gal or she was no substitute for my wife but she still took offense. "Well, if you expect me to become B. S. just to please you, forget it!"
All this while she was running around behind my back. Some women use the double standard as well.
My point, I could admire another woman, be upfront and honest about it and not have it interfere with my real life partner.

There are no winners in PA. But the people on this site who are working toward and end to the nightmare of PA may well be the forefront of a re-evaluation of how our society sees the P industry as was the case with tabacco, drugs and alcohol.
But that's going to take a long time. A very long time.

On a different note.....

I've kinda hit a wall in my personal life and it's been a good/bad thing and I'm still trying to deal with the changes. I may be a bit less active here for a while but my very best thoughts will be with you all.
I read many, many posts here and I've seen some great strides among many members. That's amazing. Personally, I think some of the folks here are much farther ahead then they realize but I think fear and doubt are holding them back. Use trust and faith a bit, and I mean all the way, and see just how far you've really progressed.
As things were reaching the breaking point for me a short while back I wrote that I love you all. That may seem sappy to some, tough. It's how I feel. When some one reaches down and offers you a hand out of the cesspool and doesn't look to see if they'll get dirty, that's special.
I always told my soldiers that what would get them through the worst times wasn't training, discipline or courage. It would be love. Love for their fellow soldier, love for their families and love for the gifts we have in this country.
If you are a PA, love will get you and your SO past this. If you're an SO, same. If you're a PA without a relationship, learn to love yourself and this will dry up and go away in time.

The only way off this site is the easy way. Quit. But's a lot more rewarding to stay.
Embrace the courage and strength, support and humor here. Use it as your shield.
I'm not a religious person but I know wisdom when I read it;
If you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to your
mountain, "MOVE!" and it WILL move... and NOTHING will be
impossible for YOU!

Matthew 17:20

CF