Safe Space to Vent

[Raven]

I've been with my SO for over six years now and we've known each other for about 10. I'd like to say he's a recovering PA but the truth is probably closer to remission. He goes through cycles but over the last year the time between relapses has become shorter and shorter. Leading me to the point I am now. Financially, I can't leave him until at least December 1, 2012, if by then he has a firm foot in recovery I'll consider staying otherwise I'm outta here.

As an aside to help you understand where I'm coming from my profession is mental/behavioral health. I understand the in's and out's of addiction and the nuerological implications of PA/SA.  I've tried being supportive and to find him options for help but he has to take the steps to his recovery, I can't do that for him and I can't keep living the way we have been.

After he relapsed, again, a couple of weeks ago he finally got an account on here that he's only used once or twice. It's the biggest step he's taken towards getting outside help.  Unfortunately, there are no support groups in our area and no dr's with this specialty. Not that we could afford one since we're both laid off.

After the last couple of days I just really needed somewhere safe to vent because I can't talk to my friends about this. He really seemed to be doing good this time, no P, no MB, not pawing me up all the time.  Then the relapse, I had to take our oldest to the ER and he couldn't "stand the stress" so he logged onto porn. Then he logged onto here to try to get some help. I understand that relapses happen, especially in times of stress but I'm just so tired of six years of relapses.

Still, I tried to just put it behind us because he seems like he's really trying to recover this time. The other night I was feeling affectionate but there was "no response" if you know what I mean. Never has this happened before and though I didn't make a production out of it I must admit I took it personally.

One of the side effects of his PA/SA is that he has a tendency to attract woman who want to get in his pants and this has been the source of most of our fights regarding his addiction, because he claims that he doesn't notice that they're trying to get him in bed. They're always "just a friend." I'd say 90% of the time those are his intentions but that's not the case with the girls. We currently have a female friend who I know my SO wants to "be friendlier" ;O) with though he denies it but admits that he finds her "cute." She is a friend and I think that's the sole reason the line hasn't been crossed. She would also like to be "friendlier" with my SO since she's so unhappy with her impotent BF. She was over the night before last and we were all hanging out having fun. After a while though the two of them started their usual horsing around so they have an excuse to put their hands on each other and he "accidently" fell in her lap. The jokes about threesomes. Then he proceed to tell her some stuff we do in bed. I was mortified, I'm pretty open sexually but there are a few things I like to keep private and here he is telling her!  He blew me off as being silly about it when I confronted him later. She wound up crashing on our couch 'cause she didn't have a way home. He and I go to bed, look who's ready for business! He's all ready to go and wanting to do it 'cause she's downstairs.  Are you kidding me!? He wasn't ready to go when it was just him and I but now that she's under the roof "hello!" We haven't talked about it because he'll just twist it into my being paranoid and overly sensative and somehow everything will wind up being all my fault.  When I bring up their rough housing he says that's just the way they are, but they aren't like that when her BF is around. Makes me feel rather disrespected.

I can almost say I don't care if he sleeps with her, I would be hurt, but of all the girls that have tried to get in his pants she's the only one that I'd be okay with being a step-mom to our kids. She is a good person, if she wasn't they'd have been in bed long ago, and she's good with the kids. If a break up is gonna happen and he's gonna move onto someone else at least I'd be cool with her being around the kids. Perhaps that's a weird way to look at things but I'm just too worn out to keep fighting for him.

He says he'd never do anything with her, but I believe that if the two of them were hanging out alone together that they would cross the line.

I just had to get this out 'cause the hurt is killing me.

[Disillusioned]

Hi, Raven. Welcome to TTF. I am happy that you found us, and it truly is a safe place to vent. There are some very caring, outstanding people on this site. We have one thing in common, and that is all of us whether SO or PA, we all have suffered pain from p and addiction to it. Please keep venting as you need, and try to read some of the journals. There are some very smart, caring, and sensitive women here who understand what it is like to have the grief of not having a marriage you had faith in, believed in and counted on. Many have also had Hs that seemed to recover and relapsed again and again. While no one can give you the direct answer as to what to do in your current situation, many will come to your journal with amazing insight that might help you clarify your own feelings and resolve and help you figure out which direction you will go in your future. We are not just concerned about the PA's recovery. As SOs we also need to recovery. The pain and shock experienced by an SO has been likened to PTSD, and I have seen that in many of our SOs here.
Let me assure you, that none of this is about you, what you lack, or your appearance. This is about your h and how he thinks and how he hides from his own pain, disappointment, or lack of success. P and related activities are a numbing drug for many of our men, even if they don't recognize it.
Try looking in the general discussion area at the 14 ways PAs often justify their p use. There are many more meaningful articles on there. There is another interesting thing about this site. Sometimes when we reach out to support someone else who is in pain, a light comes on in our own minds that makes sense and is true immediately in our own struggle.
I hope your experience here will be the blessing for you as it has been for me and many others. I was at my wit's end with my h's justifying his behavior and blaming me for being old-fashioned, unrealistic, and too sensitive. When I found TTF, it was truly as if God had dangled a life line down to me. I still struggle, but each time I log on and read, I am amazed at how my focus sharpens again and the truth, rather than all the BS my h and the p purveyors contend, comes through with clarity and focus.
Good luck on your journey, Raven.
disillusioned

[stillinlove]

Hi Raven,
You're certainly in the right place to vent, cry, scream, find answers, and so on.
I know of the pain and situations you describe in your post. My ex-husband was the same way you describe.
He didn't have a clue what I was talking about when I mentioned addiction. He was brought up believing the wife stays home while the husband has his playmates.
I accepted it for awhile. But as I began to change myself, to work on myself, and uncover why I would accept such treatment, I decided it was time for me to go.
I knew it had nothing to do with me.I just came to a decision that this was not the type of relationship I wanted or deserved.
He has remarried, and still carries on. He's even bribed me for sex using my son as the pawn.
It was a sad situation since we had loved each other. When I went to my therapist, he taught me integrity, self respect, dignity, etc. I knew nothing of those words at that time.
You mention you can't leave until a year from now but you didn't explain. Sharing it might allow the other SOs to show you other alternatives that you may not have thought of.
You also mentioned you are a therapist and know about addiction. I was also in the field, and it was just book knowledge to me. It didn't help me. I gained an understanding,
but it didn't alleviate the pain. We can understand, and understand, and understand, but it still came down to what was I going to do for myself. I needed to hold my head up high and live a happy life without all that chaos. It was his, I didn't need to make it mine any more. I left with just the shirt on my back. I couldn't touch any money we had because it was his inheritance. I was very shaky and in a very dark place, but it was well worth it. The freedom, the clarity, the being my own person was tremendous.
I joined some 12 step groups at the time to help me transition through the initial move because I was lost inside. They helped me find me, to redefine me.
I also made sure I did enough soul searching with a therapist so I wouldn't repeat it.

We're here for you. Stay with us. You'll become much stronger with the support of TTF.
I know your pain, it's 20 years later, but I can still conjure up the feelings of what I put myself through and allowing myself to be treated that way when I read your post or when I read others here or in other sites.

Best wishes..

You already know what you will do, it's about taking the leap of faith.

[raining on the inside]

Hi Raven, welcome to TTF! I am very glad that you found your way here, as this is a wonderful place of support. I just joined in late November and it has made a world of difference for me...sharing my story, getting feedback from others who have been through this and know what it is like to feel this kind of hurt, and reading others' stories which I'm sure you will find (as I did) so many posts that sound as though you could have written them yourself.

Similar to you, my profession is also mental health and I know a great deal about addiction and recovery and treatment models... but just as stillinlove mentioned, our professional world is one of knowledge and understanding but unfortunately not one that actually prepares us for the devastation that PA can cause in our own lives. I don't think there is any amount of knowledge out there that could have prepared me for this experience.

Continue writing and letting your feelings out here. It is a safe place to do so. I have also found it helpful to read other SO journals as well as many threads in the general discussion area. You mentioned that your husband also joined TTF but that he doesn't use it much... I had a very similar experience with my husband. What I ended up doing was reading a lot here on my own and sending him links to ones that I thought would strike a cord with him, knowing that he wouldn't search through them all. Encourage him to read the PA and the SO journals. Another thing that I have done was ask my husband to read my journal on a regular basis so that he can know what it is that I am going through on a regular basis. He gets angry sometimes with things I write, but I still think it is helpful for him to see it in black and white. Maybe it would be helpful for your husband to read your feelings as well.

Good luck Raven and continue seeking support when you need it :)

[waterlily327]

Hi Raven, welcome to TTF. Though I am sorry you find yourself in a situation where you need to come here, I am glad you found this site in your time of need. I would have to agree with what the other’s have said...even with your background in mental health, all that knowledge and education cannot prepare you for when it hits so close to home.

TTF is a safe place to share and vent. Most of us SO’s here have similar stories, though no two stories are alike.

The most important advice I received when I joined earlier this year was always remember to take care of yourself. It is really difficult to do, but especially now, you need to make yourself the number one priority. If he is not yet willing to change or admit to his addiction, nothing you do or say will change that. So make sure you take care of yourself.

Good luck with everything, Raven. I wish you all the best, and look forward to reading more from you soon!

[Raven]

Thank you all for your words of support.

Should I choose to leave there are several reasons why I would have to wait until November. Our lease, no family or friends who could take the kids and I in, no car, and no money (I'm laid off with my UC benefits about to run out).

He's been doing better, a little over a month with no P. I'm proud of him and told him so. He was a little insulted yesterday because he saw me checking the history on the computer. Little does he know that's not all I check on the computer. He said he understood and was sorry that I had to do that, but it still kind of hurt him that I did. Haven't found anything, which is great. L

The last couple of days though I've been suspicious, I think it's me being paranoid. I haven't seen any signs that he's using P again and when I take that moment to step outside myself to analyze things it really seems like I'm just going through a gun shy phase.

He's certainly not perfect. We had, I don't know what I would call it, a discussion about our female friend again. We talked about them being all touchy and it didn't go well. I had a male friend several years ago that I was very close to, but we were just friends. There was no hanky panky, no touchy feely, we only even hugged on appropriate occasions (funerals, birthdays, weddings, etc). Any how some things were said between Odin and my friend (no clue what, neither if them will tell me) and now my friend doesn't speak to me any more. We're still "friends" on FB but we never talk in chat or on the phone or anything. Before Odin and I were together this friend would call me at least three times a day, after Odin and I had been together about a year and a half to two years he got really pissed off and complained about how often my friend called. I asked my friend to cut back and he was rightly hurt but we managed to keep the friendship going for then. Odin has has these trolip flavor of the week female friends in and out of his life most of our relationship. Many I've ignored because I knew they weren't having sex and they'd be gone before they became any real problem. Only two of them did I put my foot down about, I'm of course the possesive fiance for that. I haven't even put my foot down about our friend, I just tried to tell him that I felt their behavior was disrespectful. I got, "You were the same with Joe and I never said anything." Okay, now that's the kind of addict blame-shifting topic dodging behavior that just makes me wanna scream in his face. I didn't, I responded with "Um no....we never sat in each others laps and things like that. I'll also remind you that it was because of you that I asked him to call me less often and it was because of you that he no longer speaks with me." More dodging of the subject, so I told him to do what he wants but to remember there are consequences to behavior and they may not always be evident right now. The next time she was here, he was better behaved.

Time will tell. Hopefully he'll use this site as he needs to. I'd really like to stay with him, beyond the addiction is a great person, but it's going to depend on how hard he wants to work at staying clean as well as how hard I work at finding ways to cope with what has passed.

[Disillusioned]

Hi Raven, I addressed the PA in my first response, but not the tickle, ha ha, horse-play, body to body BS. Sorry, but that is what it is. I had a cousin who is probably about the closest thing to a living saint walking the planet today. Her DIL was an alcoholic, drug addict, and I suspect an SA. She prostituted some of the time, also. When my cousin's son and family came to visit my cousin's h and his DIL played the same way. It was embarrassing, not suitable for the kids to see, and totally disrespectful of my cousin and her son as spouses. My cousin is usually kind with her words and demeanor, but one day she had had enough. She told them, if you two want to get it on, which is what your behavior looks like, leave and do so, out of my sight and out of my house. I applaud her for her strength and words. Her son and the woman divorced and the woman continued her decent into more and more destructive behaviors.
Raven, this is your home, and no woman on earth has the right to go over and touch, man-handle, flirt, wrestle, or any of the other things people who are attracted to each other physically often do. You are right...this is attraction. The rule is keep it out of my house. That woman would not be invited back into my home again, even if a tornado was chasing her behind and she wanted to try to duck in and find shelter. Sorry, Lady, your company is not welcomed here.
This is probably one of the most disrespectful things I have seen a spouse do in front of his spouse. I have seen some of this in behavior on my BIL long ago, and he did have multiple affairs. I don't know why my sister had these friends around. IF any of this stuff was happening, I would rip out my phone and not answer the door before I would let such a person in.
That doesn't mean your h won't get attention elsewhere. Women can tell when a man 'has his oars in the water.' Add a little booze, a little partying, and you are asking for trouble.
I will tell you this, that way back when my h and I first got married, I had girlfriends that i knew might act just this way with my h.
I knew this cause I had watched them in hschool. We moved away from the area, and when we first got home, and I just never did get around to re-establishing the friendships. Always nice to see them in the stores and such, but no way, Jose, in my home, making so called innocent moves. At the time, I never considered that my h would have made a return move, or even the first move with them, as he had been so shy. After the p and with his own admission, he would have responded if someone like that had caught him home, by himself, and had invited themselves in. He said he wouldn't do it, now. I go out with my friends, and do not bring them here anymore. Tried that with kids and my good friends, and even that was hard. Our house is too small for much entertaining.
After what I know now, I am glad not to have had a spacious house to entertain in.
One of the other gals on here, TS, talks about her h and her friends carrying on, flirting, etc. These behaviors are just too ridiculous to put up with. Thank you, Cousin for your example. I would flat out embarrass that woman should she be in my house again. You might just say, Wilamina, there's a chair for you over there. I suspect you would be much more comfortable sitting on it and NOT on H." "H, don't you have some wood to chop, garbage to empty, cars to wash, holes to dig?"
This kind of behavior quits after junior high school, by the way.
I am so sorry for you, Raven. I am hoping he keeps reading here, and opts to take the higher road in regard to p and in regard to all the ladies that he magnetically attracts. He needs to put on 'a bit of the chill' with these deprived women and let them know he is a one gal man, and you are the gal.

[Raven]

We've now reached the cranky addict phase. My SO has been two months clean now, which is great. He's now come to the point where he's just cranky and gets angry over the stupidest stuff. I've tried pointing out his mood, when he's not swearing at inanimate objects or me, but he doesn't see it.

This added to his quest for replacement behaviors is starting to drive me insane. His first thought was to take up target shooting again but that would require some large purchases. For at least six weeks I've been subjected to numerous websites, vlog reviews, and catalogs about firearms, all day everyday. Then it turned out that after taking care of the things we needed to with our tax return he didn't have enough to follow through with that.

Next he reverted to playing video games (another thing I hate) and this obsession has intensified over the last couple of days since my brother is selling us his old xbox360.

When I mention that I don't want to talk about whatever replacement behavior he's obsessing about all day long then I'm not being unsupportive and he should be able to talk to me. I'm trying to be supportive of his search for replacement behaviors but it's difficult. Not because I don't enjoy the things he's into, some of the things he's being obsessive about I do enjoy but I don't want to watch youtube videos and tv shows about them every waking moment. He's neglecting everything around here to spend time with "replacement behaviors."

I have some serious health issues so I have a hard time keeping up with the housework and some of it I just physically can't do so this is a serious issue. I can't even get him to hang up his coat when he comes home, he just throws it on the floor and I get tired of tripping over it. We went to get groceries about a week ago, he still has the canned goods sitting in the entrance way to the pantry. I'd put them away myself but he has tons of his crap stacked there so I can't even get into the pantry which has our freezer so if he's not home to climb over all of it have to make whatever he's happened to have left in the kitchen frig. We used to share the household work, we each had our tasks and we'd help each other if we needed it. It's like he's so miserable now that I "made" him give up P and MB that all he can do is just sit infront of the tv or computer.

Tomorrow I find out if I get the job I applied for. If I get that after a couple of months I should be able to find a way to stand on my own if I decide to leave him, my biggest hold up then will be finding someone to watch the kids while I work. Like I've said before I do love him but if he can't get all of this worked out soon...I think I've been through as much as I can take.

[elle kay]

i hear you about the 'replacement behaviours'...one time i had 'if i had an Xbox, i could release my testsosterone that way"....hmm...I even felt bad for him trapped with a woman and a daughter and agreed he could get one. needless to say it didnt work. You want to see them doing something responsible and considerate, not go off playing with more 'boys toys' and extreme sports. It replaces, it doesnt move forward.

[Disillusioned]

Replacement activities galore. Always hobbies and he says he regrets not having any. It's been guns, knives, shooting, reading and reading and reading, caligraphy, crosswords...anything to ease the pain of being in the real world and doing the things that are not much fun to do and repetitive in nature. Wonder if that's one of the reasons I appeal. I have always done most, but not all of the tedious things that need done. Oh well. I'm getting on the far side of it all age wise, but still have a chip on my shoulder about all that I carried, and all that he did. He thinks he contributed more than most men. Throw him a fish! I know what I was doing while he wasn't. I remember. He's taking on a lot now, cause my body is a mess, bad knee, bad back, on and on. Replacement activities. have increased...more into guns, more knives, fishing again, photography again. I don't have kids to feed and clothe. I don't care, but when he retires, he is not going to be happy about all that has been put away, and I know he'll look right at me and wonder why.
Selfishness is the first chapter of this book. Sorry ladies.