vintageturtle's journal

[vintageturtle]

JenMac wrote: "I felt that continuing to bring this forward was perhaps insulting? to my husband's promise to put this out of our lives."

Yes, that's exactly how I feel. I'm worried that he will be discouraged, thinking that I don't have confidence in him, if I keep bringing it up. I know that a big factor to success in anything is feeling supported and believing that you can do it. I don't want to undermine that. I also find myself deciding that his recovery is more important than mine, because there is more on the line if he doesn't progress, or if he regresses, than there is for me. "Messing up" for me results in being sad, eating poorly, making excuses not to leave the house, and wasting time on mindless stuff to distract myself. "Messing up" for him might result in a relapse, in him doing something that would hurt me more than I am hurt by my own slow recovery. I was home from church for a few weeks in a row because we had one kid sick after the other. H offered at one point to stay home so I could go, but I declined. Mostly because I was exhausted after being up in the night with the sick kid, but I was glad for the excuse, because I figure H needs the spiritual renewal of church way more than I do right now.

I think, to a certain extent, it's not a bad thing to be concerned about your spouse's welfare. But I also know that I can't never bring this stuff up, and that even if I'm trying to protect my H, it's not fair to him to hide how I'm really feeling and carry on as if everything is OK. That's what he did, hiding his PA for so long.

I appreciate your reminder that going back to "normal" is not the goal. I have had times since the disclosure when I felt closer to H than I had ever felt before in our relationship. Times when I felt so much love and admiration for his bravery in coming forward with this that I thought I would burst. Times when I saw his coming forward as an act of love and sacrifice, a real effort to recover and give me the marriage I thought I had. And yet, going back to normal is what I often think I want. I wish it had never happened, etc. I'm wishing the past were different instead of working on the future I want.

[vintageturtle]

Yesterday, H was working on our old computer; he figures if he can put an ethernet card in it and have it work reasonably well, the kids can play online games together. But this was a computer we used before we decided to try K9. By the end of the evening, he managed to get access to the internet through the computer, and he asked me to install K9. It hadn't even occurred to me. I tried to go to the site, but it was down. H said I should try again later, and it was still down. He did not sound happy with that, and said we would need to be sure to go to bed at the same time.

Now, of course it's a good thing that he's taking the initiative and aware of potential problems and sticking with his recovery plan. I know I should be grateful for that. I am grateful for it. But the importance of either getting the filtering software on or doing something else to protect H from online access just reminds me of how vulnerable he is, and in turn how vulnerable I am. It was so hurtful to think that if it were unguarded just for one night, H might take advantage of that, even though he knows how much it would hurt and betray me. I almost want to laugh at how absurd it is. I don't want to minimize all of the work he has done to get to this point, but knowing that if it's there, he's worried he'll access it puts things into perspective for me.

And having all that on my mind leads me to think about his past behaviours. I think about what he must have been seeking out and looking at. What he couldn't resist. What he went back to night after night. What he must remember from viewing P.

We did talk about it tonight. I didn't open up as much as I should have, but it was a start. But it also just reinforced in my mind my reasons for clamming up in the first place. He acknowledged his impatience with my discouragement, and explained why he felt that way. Any precautions we're taking, like K9 and being careful about the movies we choose, are things we should be doing anyway to protect ourselves and our family from that stuff. Wisely controlling what is in our power to control and trusting in God for the rest is a lesson we want to learn, regardless of an addiction.

I think he feels the same way about my ability to forgive and how much I'm hurt by his actions. He didn't do this to hurt me, so in his mind, it should be just as easy to forgive him of this and get past the hurt as any other unintentional transgression, like forgetting to mail a letter for me or being stuck in traffic when I was home with the kids and sick and wanted him home on time, or whatever. To him, that's logical, and he would expect the same from himself if our positions were reversed. He really believes he would forgive me that easily and move on. So I told him a bit about how worried I had been since this fall when his sponsor had to let him go (he had relapsed and felt unqualified to help H), H relapsed, and then stopped going to meetings, and didn't really talk to me about it. He said I should just ask, he would be happy to talk. And that's about all I could manage. It was a start, but I left the conversation going over in my mind all the things I should have said.

[HopefulsRock]

Hello Vintageturtle, We use Covenant Eyes but just the same I would want to make sure that the filter was on that computer as well but merely for my wife's sake so she wouldn't wonder or worry and not because of my own insecurities. Maybe your H had the same thoughts and was just concerned for your sake and not his? Unless you've already discussed this and it's clear then I guess the only way to know for sure is to ask him. Just trying to help here because I hate for my wife or you or anyone to suffer from unnecessary worrying as there's enough genuine worry to go around as it is.

Glad to hear that the K-9 did get installed though... have a good weekend.

[vintageturtle]

HR, we did end up talking about it. He said that in his experience, if there is a chink in the armour (or a gaping hole) like having internet access without a filter, he will have a difficult time resisting it. He sees it literally as an outside force actively working against him, trying to get him in dangerous situations where he is more vulnerable and more likely to relapse.

I understand his need to protect himself, and that what is at stake is important enough for him to go to what might seem like extreme lengths to work to have that protection all the time. It just makes me worry about the situations we can't control. It also makes me doubt my trust, my idea of him. I used to think he hated P and would never watch it or MB or think about other women or pursue them. I was wrong. Now I think, well he's never paid for P or used it at work or outside of the house, so as long as the internet at home is locked down, he's safe. But how do I know that for sure? How do I know he didn't do those other things in the past because he did have a way to access P, and that's what was keeping him from crossing those lines, not his own morals or restraint or whatever?

We were chatting last night, nothing as heavy as the PA discussions, but about work and where we see our family in 5, 10 years, etc. I just kept getting triggered by stuff. He was talking about whether or not he was happy in his current job, or if he felt like he should be looking for another and applying to other jobs. He said something along the lines of "if I'm happy with what I'm doing now, I won't feel the need to look elsewhere." And that's what SOs are always told is not true about why PAs look at P. I know they're not the same situation, but I have a hard time believing that his P use wasn't at least in part about his dissatisfaction with our relationship. Even if his dissatisfaction was wrong and unhealthy and fed by his P use, I still think there must be some kind of connection there. Though maybe it's a chicken/egg thing. Maybe he became dissatisfied after "looking elsewhere." But it still stung. Later, he was dozing on the couch and didn't have a pillow; I offered to go and get him one. He said I shouldn't have to do that for him, being pregnant and all, and if it really mattered to him, he would do it himself. Again, my mind just went straight to applying that to P addiction. If giving up P really mattered to him, he would go ahead and do it. If I really mattered to him, he would go ahead and do things to protect me from hurt, not cause it. I know an addiction is considerably more complex than getting a pillow, and I'm not trying to say that my reactions are logical and reasonable, but the fact that I am having them is an indication of how I'm feeling, how well (or poorly) I'm dealing with all this.

Whenever I try to talk to H about my feelings, it reinforces to me just how little he understands them. I don't want to have to fight to be understood. I already feel like the victim here; I don't think it's fair that I have to explain and justify my hurt. I can see improvement, though; when I was telling him about being worried for the last few months, he waited a bit, and then said "This is where I feel like I'm supposed to try and fix something." But he didn't try, he just let me talk and he listened (apart from telling me that I can always ask him how things are going if I'm worried, which isn't the type of fixing he has tried in the past, it's support). So, baby steps. And hopefully, long-term improvement, and we'll both learn how to communicate better.

[vintageturtle]

OK, I need to make a kind of a confession here and get it out so I can commit to working on it. I avoid telling H anything that might make me cry. I do not want to cry in front of him. Even when I'm going over what to say to him in my mind, if I tear up, I stop, calm down, and then work on what I can say that won't lead to me crying. I already feel so weak and vulnerable, and crying would make it 17 times worse.

There is a conflict between my pride and my need to communicate. I don't want H to think I'm weak or that his actions affected me so negatively. It's like I'm in grade school and playing bloody knuckles again. I don't think I ever lost a match because to me, it was worse to let on that someone could hurt me that much than to go on with the game. On the other hand, I complain that he doesn't really understand me, doesn't really know how much I've been hurt. Well, duh. There is a part of me that doesn't want him to know that.

[JenMac]

OK, I need to make a kind of a confession here and get it out so I can commit to working on it. I avoid telling H anything that might make me cry. I do not want to cry in front of him. Even when I'm going over what to say to him in my mind, if I tear up, I stop, calm down, and then work on what I can say that won't lead to me crying. I already feel so weak and vulnerable, and crying would make it 17 times worse.

There is a conflict between my pride and my need to communicate. I don't want H to think I'm weak or that his actions affected me so negatively. It's like I'm in grade school and playing bloody knuckles again. I don't think I ever lost a match because to me, it was worse to let on that someone could hurt me that much than to go on with the game. On the other hand, I complain that he doesn't really understand me, doesn't really know how much I've been hurt. Well, duh. There is a part of me that doesn't want him to know that.

Hi VT!
It seems we think that if we show our vulnerabilities that we are showing weakness. I have learned for me that that is not the case. By showing mac all I was experiencing it actually became a strength. It not only helped him to see the depth of what I was experiencing but it helped me to work through these emotions and feelings as well. Instead of burying these feelings they were right out there in the open for both of us to see. I think that is the most important thing I learned this time. It was important that we each understood what we are dealing with. And the only way to do that is if we can learn to communicate and understand what the other was going through. Oh talks were tough, still are. But so necessary to keep us moving in a good direction.
So VT, let down your guard a bit. Let him in to see your vulnerabilties. You may be surprised what it will do not only for him, but for you as well.
Hugs!
Jenn

[stillinlove]

Hi VT,
It was when I became fully honest, from my heart, with BE, and let him know how it was affecting me, crying, fear, etc,
that he opened up from his heart. I was amazed at how he was feeling underneath his facade.
I don't know if you have gone to alanon or open AA meetings, but it is a big help in understanding addiction.

You'll make yourself crazy by reliving the pain by going back into the memories. it's no good for your health.
Besides Covenant Eyes, we had a keylogger program on the computer for awhile. And now we found out there is a
'porn detection stick' to weed out pictures. Even advertisements, just innocent (well, not really) pictures are everywhere.

My next comment may be too much tough love, but here goes, please know I mean no
offense. It seems we, SOs, are so focused on the PA, that we don't recognize that we are behaving the same
way we don't want them to. What we want from them, we also need to do, ourselves. I just know I couldn't keep living
through him, and his ups and downs became my ups and downs, I needed to gain control of myself and get grounded, so I could stay sane.
be my own person. I didn't want to live through him anymore. It's exhausting. And, I feel, I owed it to myself to get back to who I am.
Sorry if that is too strong. I apologize in advance.

[HopefulsRock]

Wow VT, you certainly are communicating well with us on where you're at these days and I appreciate it. Some good stuff that I see here with the chats yo and H have and his awareness of his own weaknesses, Sorry if my interjections here are causing you more troubling thoughts it's just I do see myself in him a bit and definitely my Hopeful in your heartfelt expressions and I want to warn and help you if I can. Those triggering thoughts you had while chatting with H are normal and make perfectly logical sense to me. The good thing when you step back and look is the fact that you two are talking about each other and your life and good or bad, what is happening is very real and those conversations need to happen.

VT I laughed out loud when I read about the "Bloody Knuckle Game" ...must be a Canadian thing? Is it a girls game or a coed test of endurance and strength, either way I'm sure it helps to build some strong kids? All that stuff you wrote about not wanting to show weakness and never letting your H or possibly anyone see you cry sounds very familiar to me. Not from my wife however but rather from me and one of the most valuable things I learned in my journey of recovery is how important it is to be in touch with my emotions. As time goes on and I learn more about myself and upbringing I am realizing more and more that it wasn't my Dad who affected my keeping my emotions to myself ...it was my Mom. This recovery has me not only talking better with my wife but also with my kids, sister, brother and probably everyone and in doing that my brother, sister and I have come to realize that we've never seen our Mom cry... maybe a tear or two but never cry! Quite an awakening to us but real none the less. Sorry I'm rambling on here but sometimes I find some amazing conversations that happen out of nowhere in peoples journals... actually I feel this is helpful to me too and I hope somehow for you as well.

One last thing and I believe I speak for most guys here, "sometimes as guys, we just don't get it and need to have things pointed out directly to our face!" In my case because I was so dense and Hopeful finally lost it... either in a letter or in an intense crying conversation that was not going anywhere and she let it all out.............That's when I finally got it and understood just how badly I'd made things or how badly I was overlooking things, sad it had to get to that but in retrospect I finally learned what I needed to learn... everything happens for a reason I guess.

Thanks for sharing and allowing me to as well... I appreciate it.

[vintageturtle]

Jenn,
I appreciate you input on strength vs. weakness. I'm definitely afraid to let him see how I'm vulnerable; I'm afraid that he will be dismissive or tell me I shouldn't find certain things hurtful because they weren't meant to hurt me. That's why I've clammed up, in part. Your post helps me see how that will take strength to get through, instead of being a sign of weakness.
Something else occurred to me as I read your post. It reminded me of all the other great advice you've given me, especially when I was new here. Right now, I feel like I was stronger then than I am now. When I try to figure out why or look at it more closely, it doesn't make a lot of sense, and I didn't feel particularly strong then. This was all I could think about all day for a while after H first confessed; I'm past that now, though over the last few days I'm dwelling on it more and more. I think I also felt more forgiving and understanding then. It was easier in the beginning to see that this was difficult for H; I really wanted to understand and support him. I find myself being less understanding now, and getting angry again.

[vintageturtle]

stillinlove,
You make a really interesting point. I've held back, thinking that my need to talk and unload would burden him; it hadn't occurred to me that it would help him do the same. But it makes sense, especially if I'm here, avoiding talking to him about stuff partly because he's not talking about his stuff and I'm worried he's just keeping it bottled up and I don't want to add to that pressure. I know that if he started talking, I would feel more free to do the same.

I completely agree that we sometimes act the same way as they have been acting. I know that I need to work on my recovery just like he does, and that we each have responsibilities to help heal this relationship. It's not too strong; I do need reminders and reinforcing like that, and I appreciate it.