Looking vs Lusting

[metalfossil]

I was going to post this in my journal, but I really would love to hear other pa's views. And of course SO's views.

I've never really given this any thought. I've just looked and (and never really considered it as lusting) figured it was okay to look. Of course because I've been looking at women this way since even before puberty, I always considered It was normal; and I had a normal sexual appetite. All men look at women this way, don't they?

Well, don't they?

It's truly scary to admit to myself that I don't really know any more if any of my (sexual) urges are above board. p has been a part of my life for such a long, long time, I am in uncharted waters at the moment. I'm lost and I'm not sure if I will ever figure it out.

My question then: Is there a healthy way to appreciate (to look) at women, is it possible to look but not lust.

I'm not looking for an excuse; I truly do not know anymore.

MF

[ocja0201]

Well I'm going to preface this by saying it's my opinion. Is there a healthy way to appreciate alcohol, not to the alcoholic there isn't. My problem isn't appreciating the beauty of the opposite sex, but the fact that I start to mentally undress them. To avoid this I try to look at their face only, it doesn't always work but at least it attempts to dodge the near occasion of sin. It seems that once I let my imagination start to wander is when I have crossed the line.

[IN NEED OF HELP]

MF
This is a good question my friend. But being honest here and this is my opinion, looking and lusting, is the hardest part of this addiction to overcome. I never truly realized just how much a problem it was for me, until after about 6 months of freedom from P. when I hit that 6 month mark, I had an obsession in looking at women, and having a lot of unclean thoughts going in my head. Sure, I knew I had always checked other women out, but I did not know the extent I was doing it.

It hit me hard after that 6 months, and I just could not understand why this was happening. In my own conclusion, I feel that I am doing this, because of the LUST issues that come with this addiction, and to be honest, I never worked on lust in my recovery. I was just focusing, on staying away from P. when I finally did realize to what extent I was lusting/looking, I knew that I needed to do something about it.

But the thing is, I haven’t found any tools to use, when it comes to this problem, so we need to just find the best way to deal with it. I am doing so much better in this area, but if I was to say, that I don’t do it anymore, well, I would be the biggest liar on this site. The one thing I have learned in fighting this addiction is that it is not right, or will it ever be right, in a way us addicts view women. Women deserve so much more respect, than we have ever given them. They are not just objects that allow us addicts, to get off with a cheap thrill. THEY ARE WOMEN, THEY ARE MOTHERS, THEY ARE DAUGHTERS, THEY ARE SISTERS, AND THEY ARE AUNTS. They are humans just like us, who deserves much respect, when it comes to the way they are viewed.

So I know for me, that it is my goal in life, to NEVER disrespect any woman like that. Oh it is hard as hell to not look and lust, especially when they are wearing things that show everything that they have. Even if they do dress like that, they do it, so maybe they can feel good about themselves, not for us sick addicts, to look at this, and MB too.

So we can overcome this, but I just don’t have the answers for how to do it. This one is hard to do, but if we are to make sure that our HEART is in the right place, then we can do it. If we can’t look at them, and just think that they are a beautiful, and look away, then we shouldn’t look at them at all.

To me, woman, are the most beautiful, and special gift that God put on this earth for us men. He did it, so we can find that special woman, that special love, the special person, to spend the rest of our lives with. And who in the hell are we, to continue to Disrespect these beautiful women we see, and we have no right in doing so, because they don’t belong to us in the first place.
Think about how us men feel when we see other men, undressing our wives/so’s. Why do we get pissed off at them, in all honesty, they are men, just like us.
I hope you find what you are looking for, and I hope we all find a way, to stop disrespecting all women on this earth

Gerald

[waterlily327]

Hey MetalFossil, I hope that you don’t mind me throwing in my thoughts on this topic! As an SO, it is really a fine line in my opinion. For me, I can glance at an attractive man and appreciate his appearance, but it stops at a glance. Anything more than a quick glance is uncalled for.

Now as an SO, I can share my experience as a young woman. I am 22 years old, and I was a ballet/jazz dancer for years so I am in decent shape. I also enjoy going to swim and boat at the lakes or rivers in the area…or at least I used to. Now I worry that my appearance or summer beach-appropriate attire will trigger someone or draw uncomfortable looks. There has been multiple occasions when I have noticed a young man looking for a little too long, a man my father’s age “checking me out”, or men closer to my grandfather’s ages staring at me. No matter who it is, it makes me feel gross. It is not flattering. It is not a compliment. It is uncomfortable, unnecessary, and leaves me feeling dirty, guilty, and mad.

I am a person. I am more than a physical shell. I have thoughts and feelings. When men stare, it makes me feel like I have done something wrong. When men stare, it makes me feel that they couldn’t care less that I am a college graduate, that I am someone’s daughter, someone’s sister, someone’s fiancée…they only care about what is on the outside.

Now I don’t mean to make anyone feel bad here, I just want to share my experiences on the opposite side of this question. Like I said, it is a fine line. Glancing at someone is one thing. Staring is another. If you are ever questioning “Is this ok?” when you are looking at a woman, then it probably isn’t because if you have to ask, you already know the answer. Like Gerald said, these women are all someone’s daughter’s, wives, sisters, mothers, etc. If you wouldn’t want someone looking at your daughter, wife, sister, mother, etc. the way you are looking at a woman, than you shouldn’t be looking at any woman like that. I hope that helps, and that I didn’t upset anyone by being so frank! Good luck!

[metalfossil]

Thanks waterlily, thanks Gerald.

Both of you, your honesty is such a light in the dark.

I now realise that at the moment I'm unable to look at a woman in any other way than my a to p has allowed me to. The Beast has infiltrated my thinking to such a degree that I always figured that looking and lusting were intertwined and the same thing; just opposite sides of the coin. And that it was appropriate.

After all isn't that what it's all about when it comes to the laws of attraction? *Ohh....revelation* My brain became wired to compartmentalise women. and forgetting that I don't know how to see the whole package( so to speak) anymore....I'm lost to describe why, or when, or how it happened. I do I'm way out of my depth here, as for so long this is the way I have seen women. As you can see, I have this massive struggle going on inside myself at present.

However there is a positive side to this, I now know when I'm behaving in this manner and can stop myself.

I hope some of this has made sense, I do know however, it feels like the fog is finally lifting.

Dave

[Daniel]

metalfossil,

Great question.

I agree verbatim with what INOH and waterlily have said and will offer additional advice and perspectives.

#1. Mrs. Daniel asked me when we were dating why I "looked up" every woman who passed our table at a busy restaurant. AWKWARD.
I did the manly thing and completely denied I was doing it. And I took mental notes to stop doing it.

I realized I had learned it from my high school days and had never really stopped. It was like a game. (Shame). News Flash: it wasn't easy to stop.

#2. Due to years and years of abuse in this area, I will never consider the activity a safe past time. I can adopt waterlily's "glance" model and in fact do, but if I notice someone in my periphery who I think carries the "risk" of being attractive, I will intentionally look away.

#3. Body Parts. They are literally everywhere. Malls, airports, stores, parking lots, work, etc. I notice they are there and I keep my eyes moving. No second looks, no attaching of faces to parts. "Looking neither to the right nor to the left but continuing straight on my way.." Look, Linger, Lust. That's the process and if I can avoid it I won't get to the "Look" stage.

#4. When walking in crowded places and (sometimes) a vertiable freak show due to relaxing cultural standards for acceptable dress, I keep my eyes high and take the advice of a pastor in California who said if he has to focus on a woman due to her close proximity, he will admire her hair -keeping his eyes high.

When I'm out and about, at work or leisure, I note what a man's eyes do when he sees an attractive female pass by. A new past time, I probably shouldn't! I note about 2/3s of the men will do a quick scan from head to toe -I can see it. The other 1/3 continue looking where they were looking without scanning or otherwise noting what just happened. This second group has either not had a problem in this area or learned to be self-controlled.

The Final Frontier!,

Daniel

[FoolishMind]

When I'm out and about, at work or leisure, I note what a man's eyes do when he sees an attractive female pass by. A new past time, I probably shouldn't! I note about 2/3s of the men will do a quick scan from head to toe -I can see it. The other 1/3 continue looking where they were looking without scanning or otherwise noting what just happened. This second group has either not had a problem in this area or learned to be self-controlled.
l

That is so funny, I used to do that, more when I was in a car, If I noticed a woman walking on the pavement (sidewalk) I would notice the male driver in front of me, move his head allowing his gaze to follow the woman, and I look in my rear few, and the male driver behind would be doing the same, and it was like a synchronised head dance. I laughed then, until realised recently I had stopped watching the dance, and became part of the dance instead.

Oh man! why does this all feel like Deja-vu!

[metalfossil]

Hi Daniel,

Thanks for your valuable input.

Yes, I also notice the the heads. It reminds me of the clown heads at the carnival where ping pong balls are dropped into a chute at the top. I too have my own ways of dealing with this at present. What does scare me though, will I have to use these skills for the rest of my days?

MF

metalfossil,

Great question.

I agree verbatim with what INOH and waterlily have said and will offer additional advice and perspectives.

#1. Mrs. Daniel asked me when we were dating why I "looked up" every woman who passed our table at a busy restaurant. AWKWARD.
I did the manly thing and completely denied I was doing it. And I took mental notes to stop doing it.

I realized I had learned it from my high school days and had never really stopped. It was like a game. (Shame). News Flash: it wasn't easy to stop.

#2. Due to years and years of abuse in this area, I will never consider the activity a safe past time. I can adopt waterlily's "glance" model and in fact do, but if I notice someone in my periphery who I think carries the "risk" of being attractive, I will intentionally look away.

#3. Body Parts. They are literally everywhere. Malls, airports, stores, parking lots, work, etc. I notice they are there and I keep my eyes moving. No second looks, no attaching of faces to parts. "Looking neither to the right nor to the left but continuing straight on my way.." Look, Linger, Lust. That's the process and if I can avoid it I won't get to the "Look" stage.

#4. When walking in crowded places and (sometimes) a vertiable freak show due to relaxing cultural standards for acceptable dress, I keep my eyes high and take the advice of a pastor in California who said if he has to focus on a woman due to her close proximity, he will admire her hair -keeping his eyes high.

When I'm out and about, at work or leisure, I note what a man's eyes do when he sees an attractive female pass by. A new past time, I probably shouldn't! I note about 2/3s of the men will do a quick scan from head to toe -I can see it. The other 1/3 continue looking where they were looking without scanning or otherwise noting what just happened. This second group has either not had a problem in this area or learned to be self-controlled.

The Final Frontier!,

Daniel

[Teemo]

metalfossil,

Thanks for asking a very important question. I am trying to answer this related one: Would I still have a problem with looking/lusting if I had not become involved with p? I think I would, because I was doing it before p. But I was young enough I could have "grown up" and learned how to behave better. P entered my life and "locked in" that behavior. Basically, I lost the will to do any better than that. There became a huge "disconnect" between my values (respect, love, honor, etc.) and my imagination/fantasy world. I even got some professional advice that said my problem was that I was "rigid" and should basically relax and let my urges "wash over" me, or something like that; p and m were not to be seen as a problem, much less the looking/lusting/fantasizing that became my way of feeding my urges.

Addiction had warped everything for me. Finally "getting it" has been so important. It's not about how to stop p and m from growing into a bigger and bigger problem. It's about reaching out for some truth, some sanity. We were not created for this. We know that.

I think we all need to be humble as we try to sort out these things. We are not in a good position to see the truth of things real clearly until we have lived well for a while, doing what we can to recover from the damage we have done.

[JanJ]

That's a great question, Metalfossil, and I see some informative replies. Waterlily's comments from the 'receiving end,' are very useful, as well, and I certainly agree as to 'staring' being inappropriate. I don't think there's any one answer to the 'glance' problem; for example, maybe 'never even give a glance' is the path some do well to take, or aim for.

The paralllel problem with alcoholics, has been noted, and Fletcher, in Sober for Good, mentions a small number of recovered folk who allow themselves, occasionally, food with traces of alcohol. But most do not.


I think it's worth trying to be clear *what* the problem is, that one is trying to solve. Is it "addiction to porn"? Is it "compulsive sexual behavior"? Clearly there is no more PA, if the person never again accesses porn, but most of us, I think, would agree, the problem is bigger. An alcoholic who switches to beer and wine only, likely still has a problem, but what about one who now lives on coffee and jelly doughnuts and is vastly overweight?

Clearly 'ogling' women, or even mentally undressing most that one sees, is compulsive behavior. Further it causes problems with one's partner. That said, I don't know if the goal of 'no lustful looks,' is realistic for most. Further, in my opinion, depending on the problem that one defines *for oneself* the issue of occasional lustful looks not acted upon [and not so obvious as to offend civility], may or may not be a defect, or at least a fatal one, in recovery.

I'm reminded too, of the Big Book's statement (roughly) that the aim is progress, not perfection.