Sunny days

[FoolishMind]

To my fellow PA's

Want to ask a straight question, and would really appreciate a straight answer.

In sunny hot weather, the majority of women, dress with less clothing, and can often show a little too much.

Previously I looked away easily done, due to my stress levels at the moment, im tending, to not turn away so quickly. and ashamedly finding myself using my car mirrors again to assist in the view.

What methods, techniques do you use, to counter this?

I really don't expect every woman to wear a burkha but what some women wear just really isn't right.

And ive noted myself that ive told my wife to change her top a few times because I think its showing too much, and while annoyed, she respects me enough, and this is on the back of comments from her saying "I was really annoyed today, this guy at work kept staring at my chest" In my head i was kinda like "well why give him something to look at!

Ugh! What is going on with me!

Anyway, really appreciate some advice and tips on this one.

Thanks
FM

[exteberria]

Yea I can relate to your post. I've also had some fights with my girlfriend about this kind of thing. I don't think its about sexism, as long as your specific in your view. My view is that I personally don't like women dressing provocatively in an inappropriate environment. Obviously, if you go to the beach - there will be a lot of girls wearing bikinis, so I think a bikini is appropriate for this situation. But I do think its wrong to walk into a cafe close to the beach with a bikini on, especially when almost all the girls in the cafe are clothed and only one or two have a bikini on.
I had a fight with my girlfriend about her wearing really short shorts with high heeled boots on a cold winter's day, when no other girls were wearing this kind of thing. There were soo many guys looking, and I felt like some guys were also openly laughing about her. We almost broke up about it.
I think in general - women must be allowed to wear anything they want which comes from my deep personal opposition to something like the burkha. It's just my view that I would like women to choose to wear clothes that bring out their beauty in a non-sexual way - mostly highlighting their eyes, hair and face. Clothes that relate to the environment or situation. Otherwise they will attract the wrong attention from the wrong guys.

In relation to looking at girls, I just think to myself that I'm being immature if I'm openly looking at girls in a sexual way - regardless of what they are wearing. Just because a girl is wearing something that is exposing parts of her body, doesn't mean I have to stare at her and rubbish my relationship with my girlfriend.

[IN NEED OF HELP]

Previously I looked away easily done, due to my stress levels at the moment, im tending, to not turn away so quickly. and ashamedly finding myself using my car mirrors again to assist in the view.

What methods, techniques do you use, to counter this?

Man you described me when you this. This is something that I am trying to work on at the time myself. I really do not have a solid solution yet to counter the problem, but I am working hard as hell in fixing it.

I know for me, that the LAST thing I want to do in my life now, is disrespecting women, in any way at all. So for one, I know if I just stare at a women, I now just made her feel like Crap, and made her feel as if she is trash. so by me doing this, I just DISRESPECTED, VERY MUCH.

Another thing I am trying to counter this, is that I know, I promised my SO that I would be honest with her in all things now. she does not deserve any less than that. So if I would not undress that woman while I was with my SO, then I know, I cant do it behind her back. If I do, then I am not honest with my SO, and I am not honest with myself.

I have chased men the the parking lot, for the way, they looked at my SO, and my daughter. this is one thing that just pisses me off. I cant stand it when a man does it, and I feel that he needs a good ass kicking for doing it. But I am no better than he is, because when I see them doing it to my loved ones, I know I may have done it to there loved ones. So I just try to convince my heart, that I can not be like those other men, who are no better than a pile of crap on the ground. So just as I want to beat the crap out of those men, I know that in turn, it is fair play, for a man to kick the crap out of me, for looking at there loved ones this way. And I don't like pain, so I try to not be like them.

What I wrote here, may sound dumb/foolish, and I know it is not a solid plan. but for me, all I have right now, is this little mind game I use on myself. I am searching for the right answers in this too, but haven't come up with anything right now. But it is working for me 80% of the time right now.
I know, that I want to be a better man when it comes to this issue. it hurts my recovery, so I need to stop it now. but as you can tell by my plans, I NEED A LOT OF HELP IN IT. So when you figure it out, please pass it my way, so I can stop this foolish behavior

Gerald

[FoolishMind]

I have chased men the the parking lot, for the way, they looked at my SO, and my daughter. this is one thing that just pisses me off. I cant stand it when a man does it, and I feel that he needs a good ass kicking for doing it. But I am no better than he is, because when I see them doing it to my loved ones, I know I may have done it to there loved ones. So I just try to convince my heart, that I can not be like those other men, who are no better than a pile of crap on the ground. So just as I want to beat the crap out of those men, I know that in turn, it is fair play, for a man to kick the crap out of me, for looking at there loved ones this way. And I don't like pain, so I try to not be like them.

INOH, that is such a obvious concept, that I did not think off. Of course! Just as we are protective of our loved ones, if someone is gorping, we get mad, and make it clear they should stop. In the same way, we should show that respect to others. I need to think like that, everytime.

That said, My wife or children would never show all their cleavage, or let their jeans hang to show their underwear etc.

So you also have to think, do some of these women actually have any respect for themselves?

[jacksinn]

Hey Foolish... I feel your pain!

In the past I have felt like I needed to be perfect in this regard... and it had almost drove me crazy (perfectionism)... in that I would fight against any urge or inclination I had when I encountered something I deemed sexually enticing. Have you ever heard someone say "don't think of..... (whatever it may be) ex.. a pink elephant... well you mind has a tendency to do whatever it is that you tell it not you (you get the point). During my time away from TTF, I was on another website (Called Candeo)... They teach the brain science behind porn addiciton. Anyways, one of the techniques they teach is the "Face it, Replace it, and connect", it is basically saying that you are going to encounter those situations (like seeing scantly clad billboards, or females walking down the street, or tv, internet pop ups.. it's apart of the society we live in now, pretty hard not to encounter something, and if we fight that inclination with "don't look at that" without some rational and thought process, we as addicts set ourselves up for future failure. So the process goes something like this (the recipe for when we encounter those situations).

Face it - Acknowledge to your brain, that you see something stimulating and exciting to you, for whatever reason that may be.

Replace it - Take that thought, and rationalize with yourself, that you don't want to view the women in that way, for whatever good reasons you can think of.

Connect - Do some sort of self care/act of service or connecting with others (call the wife, talk to your kids, say a prayer, exercise, do an act of service, write a note to your loved ones about how much you love them, something to change your focus)

The Candeo Program also recommends putting yourself in that situation mentally (imagination), and using the face it, replace it, and connect strategy, to pre-pare for that temptation, prior it it happening in real life. ***** Remembering that imagination is a powerful tool, do not get yourself worked up to a point where you loose control, and fall back into an addictive cycle or relapse ******

Anyways, that's my two cents worth.. maybe it will work.. It had a proved tract record with me when i did the exercises and pre-meditation before encountering the stimulus (I just got lazy on it).. Anyways, good luck in the battle.. nice seeing you on chat the other day!

Jacksinn

[mell]

This may be a little 'perfect worldish', but I have 2 actions.
1 - pray for them
2 - Humanize them (eg "she is jogging so she can stay healthy") - it does help to take the edge off of the compulsive need to look and objectify them.

Of course, neither of these work all the time, but they do help.

[HopefulsRock]

For my self I tend to be very strict and straight forward! ...the truth is it doesn't matter if there crazy enough to be in their birthday suits... it's not my wife and therefore not for me to view!

I now from listening to my three daughters that anytime they have noticed a guy staring at them they immediately think... CREEP!
A great motivator for me to be aware of what I shouldn't be looking at! I know for a fact how it upsets most women and I'm sure none of us considers ourselves a creep nor wants to be considered one!

Hope that helps......?

[exteberria]

It'd be good if one of the SO's posts on this thread. I'd be interested in hearing their perspective on this.

[TooSensitive]

Ok, Ext, you want an SO’s perspective, you got it!

Unfortunately, some women DO want that kind of attention. But if they do, then no, they do not have true respect for themselves. Whether they do or don’t, I like that approach of praying for them and humanizing them, as Mell has mentioned.

How about when you’re in the car, you keep a pic of your wife and you taped to the dashboard, so you can replace that view with one of the two of you instead? Of course, you’ll have to make a conscious effort to remember it’s there and to do this. Make it so that she’s always there with you, and as if she can see what you’re up to, even if she’s not literally there. Let her be figuratively there, in spirit. Get a picture of the 2 of you tattooed to the palm of your hand. I’m kidding. But find some way to remember her, even in your moments of weakness.

True change means you aren’t going to act one way around your wife, and another way when she’s not there. You are going to be consistent in the way you act, all of the time, no matter who is there. Pretend that she is there, even if she isn’t. Talk out loud to her, if you must. Who cares what other people think? Give the other drivers, or the other people around you, a chuckle. I notice other people talking to themselves quite often, actually. Maybe this is what they’re doing. I know I talk to myself often enough, even in the supermarket.

Like Rock wrote, remind yourself this other woman is not your wife, and that your wife (or g/f) is the only woman you should be looking at in this way. Well, you don’t want to objectify her either, but you know what I mean. If you’re going to enjoy the view, enjoy the view your wife has to offer you.

Remind yourself of how your wife feels when she knows you’ve looked at another inappropriately. Remember the times she’s cried out in pain. Remember all the anxiety, all the angst, all the turmoil she’s already experienced. All those very hurtful and negative feelings of despair and betrayal. Do you really want to keep putting her through that?

Put yourself in your wife’s shoes. Feel that emotional pain out of empathy. Imagine what it would feel like to see your wife ogling another man who had a stud body, walking around shirtless. It doesn’t matter that she doesn’t. Imagine it anyway. If that thought even remotely bothers you, then you’re on the right track. But it is only a mere fraction of what she’s already been through. You can never know for sure how deep her pain has been, without being her. But you can well imagine, if you allow yourself to do so.

When you’re married or in a relationship, it isn’t about being selfish. It is about being selfless. Do you know how selfless we are when it comes to you, our h’s? Do you know how deeply devoted, loyal, and committed to you we are? We need you to be the same way.

That means you do everything in your power to be selfless and not lust. Not just b/c we don’t, but b/c lusting is not the right thing to do. B/c lusting is very, very selfish. IT IS BREAKING THE MARITAL VOWS. You are doing whatever you want to do, with no thought or regard to the one you love, not to mention the one you are lusting over.

I know you can’t think of your wife 24/7. Just as we don’t think of you 24/7, either. There are other people and things in our lives. Jobs we need to focus on, if we expect to keep collecting that paycheck. Children, other family, pets, yards, chores, errands, sports, recovery. The list goes on and on for all of us. But always go back to those thoughts of your wife whenever you can. Always keep the thought and the memory of her close by, so that even when she isn’t at the forefront of your consciousness, she is always there in your subconscious, just waiting for your mind to clear, so that she can pop back in again.

When you truly love another, this isn’t so hard to do. In fact, it feels natural. You think of your loved one throughout the day, calling up their memory without giving it any thought. It isn’t something that is forced or something you have to train yourself to do. It just happens, when someone is that important to you.

Let it happen, if it doesn’t already. You might be pleasantly surprised. And the more you remember her with love and fondness, the easier it becomes to replace that view with the memory and thought of her.

It isn’t a struggle for us like it is for you, to avoid looking. We can look, but we don’t feel the same things as you do. I guess the difference is that we have the ability to look without “looking”, as in, lusting. I don’t want to hear it’s b/c men are visual creatures. Men don’t have a monopoly on being visual. I am a visual creature, too, even though I am a woman. Maybe it’s b/c we already, automatically, have you in our subconscious at all times, if not in our consciousness. You are already there with us all the time, in spirit, even if you can’t be with us in body in that moment. It is an unspoken, invisible power, that real love. It binds us to you, and keeps us forever connected to you, even when you are not there. It isn’t out-of-sight, out-of-mind for us. You are always there with us. You are the thought that gets us through some of our more difficult moments we experience when you are not there. When I am sitting in the dentist’s chair, my h’s face is what fills my mind to get through. Really. I intensely focus on thoughts of him.

I find it hard to believe that it is out-of-sight, out-of-mind for any of you. I know that lust is an ongoing struggle, but the closer you move toward real love, the less appeal that lust has, and the less of a hold that lust has over you. When you give serious thought to everything that lust takes away, and everything that love gives, it does get easier to gravitate towards that which is right and that which is most rewarding. Lust may feel rewarding in the moment, but that reward quickly gets taken away, when you think about how much that lust has taken away from real love.

I am not saying you don’t already love and appreciate your wife/gf. It’s just that it becomes hard for us to fully believe in that, when you still love to look, and you still appreciate other women like that. It helps if we know you are making a sincere effort to stop lusting in all its forms. But it still makes our journey that much more difficult, when we know you are still “looking”. This is part of what continues to cause us to be triggered at times, too. B/c we know you are still being triggered.

So fight with all your might, and fight with all you have, against this beast, this monster, as I’ve heard it called. Fight against that addict side of you who wants to pull you into that darkness. Fight for the better side of you, the man, who wants to live in the light of real love.

What I’ve written may sound all romantic, mushy, or even corny. But when you believe in real love, it isn’t any of those things. It just happens to be the way it really is.

[burnedout]

You are the thought that gets us through some of our more difficult moments we experience when you are not there. When I am sitting in the dentist’s chair, my h’s face is what fills my mind to get through. Really. I intensely focus on thoughts of him.

I really had not thought of it that way before, TS. How much I matter to my wife. It's a whole new angle on why this recovery work is important, why I need to be strong and to be present. I know my wife talks about me all the time, but I had never really made the connection that that must mean she thinks about me all the time as well. Thanks.
John