I am seriously in shock! so for the sake of debate then, why does it suggest to you that it is right wing conservative and christian approach?
Where to me, it means "family" meaning loving social unit "values" The morals, the beleifs that myself and my family have been brought up with, to respect and love one another.
__________________________________________________ ___ Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.Martin Luther King Jr
Having said that..I don't think it necessarily should be changed. It might be something quite positive and meaningful to many people. The site IS very inclusive and supportive of people from lots of different backgrounds, and anyone looking for more than a cursory glance will find that out very quickly. Thanks for all the hard work of the people maintaining the site. You are doing a great job.
It's just a phrase that (unfortunately) has been co-opted by certain political parties. They say they support "Family Values" while attacking any sort of alternative lifestyle to the nuclear family. So they hate gay relationships, de facto partnerships, and so on.
Ok I can understand that, so through certain proppoganda from political parties it has changed the meaning for you. You mention "gay relationships" In the same way, go back 3 0 to 50 years, the word "gay" was not associated to sxuality in anyway purely meant happy.
Its a sad society we live in isnt it, constantly changing things. Is there anything innocent in our world these days? (sigh)
Thanks for explaining your spin on things though.
__________________________________________________ ___ Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.Martin Luther King Jr
First I'd like to make it clear, FM, that I have enormous respect for you and what you have contributed to this site. But I'm afraid I do strongly disagree, mainly when you say that this is a trivial issue.
The front page of the site is the first thing most people will see when they find it. I can say for certain that if I had seen the phrase 'family values' when I first looked at TTF, I would have been put off. I had already seen several sites that are overtly Christian in their approach. That's fine for them, but it's not right for me. I don't live in a nuclear family and I don't ever intend to. I think my way of life is just as valid as anyone else's. I live according to strong ethical principles but they are certainly not conservative ones.
I don't think this is just semantic hair-splitting. The phrase 'family values' is very strongly associated with conservative political movements, both in the UK and in the US. As I said before, I have nothing against people expressing these views on the forums, but I would not like people visiting the site for the first time to get the impression that it is the 'official' or dominant view, just in the same way that it would lose its inclusive quality if it appeared that, for example, anarchist politics was the dominant ideology.
I don't see why it would be such a big deal to have a slogan that is more politically neutral, that would reflect the way the actual forums have such a strong pluralist content and such an excellent level of mutual respect.
hey illumination, I just wanted to say this. If 2 men, or women, love each other and get together, do they call themselves something OTHER than family? Do you not have a close group of people whom you call a family? I call through the flame one of my families. And also, I have a family, whether or not there is a mother, a father, and a child.
The word "family" has nothing to do with Christianity or conservativeness. I myself am a baptist, one of the more conservative denominations of Christianity. Just because it says "family values" does not, in anyway, imply Christianity, this "nuclear family" you keep mentioning, or extreme conservativeness. Unless the actual article defines "family" then I would have to say that your getting upset over a nothing. If you look up above I posted one of the MANY definitions of family.
Unless the actual article says "a family is a man, woman, this and this and this" then you shouldn't be upset. Being that "family" has so many different definitions now, it should be able to be interpreted to meet your needs, to meet the needs of a gay or lesbian family, or to meet the needs of this "nuclear family" you speak of. And thus far, I have not felt in any way shape or form that admin has tried to impose any beliefs upon anyone with anything he has made, written, or done with these forums. In fact, taking into consideration everything that has happened on this forum, I don't even know if admin is a christian or not, and if he is, I feel that that has not shown through anywhere, and that these forums have been made to be good for everyone. In fact, admin has gone through great lengths to see that everyone feel welcome here by making sure that unless the it is clear that talk about Christianity is welcome on a specific thread, to not talk about it. I don't say "God bless you" or "I'll pray for you" to someone on here unless I know they are Christian and it has to be obvious in order for me to say so, and even then I try to be careful.
I mean, I really don't see whats so offensive about "family values".
Why do we fall? So that we might learn to pick ourselves up.
- Alfred (Batman Begins)
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to HalfPint For This Useful Post:
I agree with Halfpint and FM. I'm atheist and I don't neccessarilly like the steriotypical nuclear family but to me family values means values you would find in a family (any sort of family), values like love, support, forgiveness...general things. I wouldn't associate "family values" with anything beyond that. I mean since "family" is undefined this could be anything from the standard nuclear family to a hippie commune. My personal opinion is that this is a very general term and any worries that anyone might have about it should be dispelled by the words underneath: "Unconditional Support" which is support whoever you are and whatever you believe in. I think looking at "family values" as a Christian Nuclear family is inherrently wrong. Don't people from other religions have family values? How about people in gay relationships or unconventional familys. They are still familys and they still have values. Thus "family values" can't just describe the christian nuclear family.
Hope that wasn't too confused. Personally I think this is an issue of opinion. I think everyone has enough to worry about with PA without this sort of argument becoming too commonplace. I mean you could argue that "through the flame" is a religious reference since flames and candles are often used in religion, particularlly Christianity. But since it is not a reference to that it doesn't matter that it could be.
Hope that helped. Thanks for bringing up your concerns btw Illumination. Maybe a poll would settle the issue?
Best Wishes,
Ben
"Every day you may make progress. Every step may be fruitful. Yet there will stretch out before you an ever-lengthening, ever-ascending, ever-improving path. You know you will never get to the end of the journey. But this, so far from discouraging, only adds to the joy and glory of the climb." - Sir Winston Churchill
The Following User Says Thank You to Vorlan For This Useful Post:
I think the TTF team can appreciate everyone's point of view here, thanks for all the input. Currently we don't have the funds to re-design that part of the site, and since it's an image it's not the easiest thing to change. Our designer works on a volunteer basis and we are very appreciative of the fine work he's done here, and I can assure everyone that text was included with the best of intentions, not to spark a heated debate. In the future when we re-visit the main page we'll definitely consider this topic. Let's try to move off this topic for now, since it's not something we can address right now anyway.
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to admin For This Useful Post:
06-18-2008, 10:47 PM
Linear Mode
