• Why does P equate to infidelity, or does it?

    by
    DudeWaffle
    Published on 04-20-2011 04:09 PM
    4 Comments Comments
    A great post quoted from another PA recovery web site forum (I hope the copy/paste is not frowned upon). All of us PA's need to read/reread/memorize and truly believe this. The poster, an SO, is responding to a comment by "Rich" in which he says "On the one hand, I didn't cheat on her in 'real life', but on the other, I know that it does not matter."


    Most of that stuff sounds good rich, but there is still a lie here because you did cheat on her in "real life". YOU were really present, and YOU were really cheating. Your heart, your body, your mind, and your soul where really involved. What part of YOU wasn't there in "real life" with your p g/fs? I think I know what you mean in that you didn't "touch" another womans flesh, but that doesn't mean that what you did wasn't in "real life". Hanging on to false perceptions like this one will keep you stuck, because you are still devaluing the fact that the p girls are REAL, and you are real too, and you were really using them in REALITY. The idea that it's just occuring in fantasyland is the lie, because there is no such place as fantasyland. That idea that it was just a fantasy in your mind, is a p lie. Whatever was happening in the acts you watched, really happened, it wasn't fantasy. And when you viewed it, and used it for sexual purposes, you became a participant to it, in REAL LIFE. You weren't approaching it as if you were going to just watch others have sex, which is gross enough, but if this is going to be the honest thread, you're going to have to get honest about what was going on in your head at the time, minus the miminizing lies. SHE wasn't there in the flesh, but you were, and therein lies the truth, the rub, the REAL LIFE, parts of it. You're p g/fs were REAL ENOUGH to YOU, that you sought them out in lieu of your wife. Isn't that closer to the truth than your "not in real life" version.

    I know it's hard to accept this truth, that what you did you did in "real life". It might have been under the guise of it occurring only in fantasyland but that is the p lie, not the FACTs of the matter. The facts of the matter are that in your mind you were being with those women. And your heart and soul went along for the ride, albeit in a suppressed condition. Your body was involved too, and you were "bonding" with p, rather than you wife. It it wasn't happening in "real life" then it wouldn't hurt us in our hearts and souls, ya know? You aren't just flesh, and they aren't just pixels. You are a whole person, heart, mind, body, and soul and thus all your parts go where you go. Just because a user only uses his flesh parts, and pornified mind parts, that doesn't mean his heart and soul doesn't go along for the ride. They do, and that's how they get damaged. Because a user has to turn off, or ignore what should be their input in order to p with this sort of perceived immunity. But that is the symptom. Thinking it's "not real" is the symptom, it is the lie, it is at the core what the minimizing, and of the objectifying so if you're going to get honest, you are going to have loose these lie based differinations. You're mind is compartmentalized by these lie based walls basically, and you have to loose the lies to break down those compartmental walls, and rebuild them based on truth instead of lies this time. Stop minimizing it. Stop trying to perceive it as if it weren't cheating in this way or that way. There is no "good way" to cheat, just like there is no "good way" to p. One way is not "better than" other ways, it's just that there are different ways to cheat, but they all occur in "real life". And the consequnces are the same or worse, but the consequnces of p cheating are not less painful than the consequences of flesh cheating. And when we think they are then we are sicker than when we know there really isn't any differences spiritually. When we're trying hold on to these "not really cheating" views, then we are not embracing what Jesus had to say about it. We're still thumbing our noses at him, trying to view it from behind self serving man made lenes and falling for tricks of the devil. To look upon a woman in lust is to commit adultry with her. That's what the Bible says. It doesn't say it's okay so long as you percieve that it doesn't happen in "real life". If you are involved then it is in your "real life". The p g/f might not have been in the flesh in front of you, but your mind wasn't perceiving it as if she "wasn't there", was it?

    You think we care whether she was "there" or not? Our problem is not what all the other ppl on earth do, as there will always be fools, rather the problem is what YOU were choosing to do, as far as your wife is concerned. We're you awak while you were looking and using em? You didn't do it in a dream like state, or while sleep walking per se, that would be occuring in "fantasy". But if you did while awake, that was happening in your real life, and you were cheating on your real wife, with REAL other women, and their REAL body parts, although they were likely airbrushed. So if you are going to get honest you are going to have to unfantasyland yourself, and unfantasyland your p g/fs, and unfantasyland your wife. You have to loose the lies that suggest that some of what you choose only occured in fantasyland because ALL of it actually occured in reality.
    This article was originally published in forum thread: Why does P equate to infidelity, or does it? started by Alika View original post
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    Comments 4 Comments
    1. apuleius's Avatar
      Technology has complicated the human condition in so many ways. We experience natural shame and related inner dissonance as humans if we observe others (that is, not our own mate) unclothed for stimulation. We have been socially conditioned for 100,000 years to have such an experience arouse a sense of fear and social violation or taboo. Without further exploring the important reasons for this, let us consider what has happened with the advent of P upon human, social psychology. Our lower brain really does not distinguish that these images are “safely” removed from us. No jealous mate is going to kill us for observing his mate on a screen (i.e. with P). The privacy of our observation carries with it less social risks and consequences, but our lower brain is not wired to take this into consideration. Despite the seeming safety of P, we still feel deeply disturbed by our participation in it. Our inner brain also has difficulty distinguishing between P and the bonding presence of an actual mate. Is this fantasy or reality? Neither, at least from the standpoint of the evolution of human behavior and psychology. The heightened vividness of P extends beyond inner male fantasy giving the delusion that we are bonding with a real, flesh and blood mate. Those bonds are important for the deeply established evolutionary patterns of reproduction (nurture, family, shelter, provision, care, protection . . . .) and thus are cheapened and abused within the brain chemistry of the PA. PA is not just infidelity toward a mate, it is infidelity toward our own evolutionary constitution. Technologies have made possible these violations of social psychology in that they present a hazardous, graceless discontinuity with our long-established instinctive patterns within. Simply put, our ancestors did not prepare us for this.We also need to consider that, in the scale of “violations” or misconduct, there are gradations. We would be foolish to suppose that all behaviors are equally heinous or egregious. Some behaviors net a far greater degree of suffering than do others. The answer does not lie in making all misbehaviors equally wrong, despite the Sermon on the Mount. The answer lies in seeing the violation as it truly is, not distorting it, worsening it, lessening it, or generating repressive guilt that dishonors our evolutionary qualities as a species. We simply need to see what we are doing to ourselves and why/how it harms us and our ability to relate to those around us. No added forces (deities or repressive puritanical or victorian thinking), in my humble opinion, are needed to break the spell. As one wise man is recorded to have said, the truth shall set us free. We must approach our technologies with some healthy respect and caution, despite their wonderful benefits. Just as with the advent of writing, the species is seeing a quantum leap in its present evolution as we cross this digital divide. We are so immersed in it that we can hardly see its staggering significance. We must, through this time of destabilizing change, more deeply comprehend and respect our ancestral constitution in order to achieve that inner peace we all so much seek.
    1. burnedout's Avatar
      Apuleius:

      My understanding of evolutionary psychology is probably rudimentary at best. If I read you right, though, you’re saying that P users are trying to outrun behavior patterns inculcated in us through millennia of conditioning, and that this conditioning was brought about by the social realities of the times. I don’t know if the consequences of infidelity are less grave today than they were in times past. In fact, I don’t know anything at all about the consequences of infidelity in times past. But I do understand the pain and hurt that infidelity causes, having been on the giving and receiving end of it, and having read so many SOs’ accounts here. It makes me think, I’ve given you so much. I’ve listened to you, I’ve sacrificed for you, I’ve been there for you, and this is the thanks I get? What do I have to do to be the only one you want to be with?

      Some people may say that this pain and hurt is a holdover from more primitive times, and from reactions to conditions that no longer apply. Perhaps those people are able to move beyond such feelings. Perhaps they’re more evolved than I am. I never could get beyond those feelings and still cannot. I have never personally known anyone who could, not even the ones who tried to explain away for me what I felt when I was cheated on. When it happened to them, they felt just as bad.

      I view P use as infidelity because I think the brain’s reaction is the same as if we had been with a real person. But I think the desire that P use stems from can be turned toward more positive ends, rather than just suppressed or driven underground. The problem for me seems to be that I have been too scared to turn this desire toward better ends, for fear of failure, and the embarrassment and humiliation that I assume will come next. I’m scared to post this comment, for instance, because I worry that it’s too long, or that it might be read as insensitive or shifting blame, or phony, or too canned-sounding, or not from the heart, or a host of other probably nonsensical reasons.

      I believe that there are conflicting urges to the drive to create a stable family unit that you talk about, Apuleius, and that these urges are also part of our ancestral constitution. The salient one here is the need to explore. P use may satisfy that need in a limited way, as the brain can’t tell whether you’re forming real connections with others or not. It gets what it wants either way. When I was younger, I satisfied this need to explore by dating a lot. When I entered into a permanent relationship, I satisfied it by using P. Obviously, dating is healthier than using P, but both became a way for me to avoid growth, which can be painful but is necessary. At either stage in my life, I could have met that need to explore by staying in school, or sticking with the band I was in after I dropped out, or making new friends, or traveling. Any number of positive things. I avoided them all, never stuck with anything, chiefly out of fear, which sometimes masqueraded as boredom.

      Nowadays I feel more in control, and more able to choose to stick with things that sometimes seem difficult, including my relationship with my wife. Why the rational part of our brains sometimes seems so much weaker than the instinctive part, I don’t know. But I feel as if the rational side is finally gaining strength, and not pushing that darker, instinctive side out of the picture, but working with it.

      What I still have such a hard time understanding even after all this time is this: if compulsive or addictive viewing of P violates such deeply held human beliefs, why do we do it, and why do others provide us the means for doing it? It’s like asking, “If cigarettes kill you, why do people make them?” I know it sounds incredibly naïve, but why would someone make a product that hurts you? I probably won’t get the answer anytime soon, and it might not help anyway, but the question sticks in my mind nevertheless. Then again, Freud said all he ever did was study irrational behavior. That behavior probably has roots in the kinds of things you’re talking about, Apuleius.

      All the urges, energies, drives, wants, and needs that I have are value-neutral. That includes the urges to withdraw as well as the urges to move forward. Even that voice that tells me not to take a risk, that sees danger around every corner, is not necessarily a bad thing. It’s just trying to protect me.

      It’s what I do with these parts of me that makes them good or bad. I feel like I’ve lived most of my life on autopilot, reacting instead of acting. I’m making conscious choices now. I can already see the benefits of redirecting my energies toward my wife, my family and friends, and my work. Call it sublimation, or cathexis, or whatever. We are both becoming healthier and happier. There will be a lot of work ahead to undo the damage I’ve done and those around me, but I hope things keep going the way they’ve been going lately.
    1. burnedout's Avatar
      sorry, duplicate post
    1. apuleius's Avatar
      Hi burnedout,Thank you for your thoughtful candor. I see behind your words a great deal of wisdom arising from much contemplation and a life of pain, apparently very similar to my own. I fully agree regarding fidelity. I think fidelity (not just sexual or romantic) is perhaps the single most important awareness one can have in this world, whether given, received, or both. Fidelity is our true connectedness. For me, it is simple to see that P use violates this precious connectedness with my mate. All I must do is turn it around. How would I feel if she were hunched over her computer, engrossed in a spree of arousing images or explicit scenes of unclothed men? How would I feel were I to discover such a compartment in her psychology? For some reason, the idea of her lightly fantasizing about other men does not disturb me nearly so much. (I assume that all healthy adults have a fantasy life.) This exercise in turning things around reflects my own honest opinion of my relationship with P. I would deeply vex my heart if SHE did what I have done! This exposes what I REALLY think about what I have done, i.e. without the excuses and softened language.Like cocaine addiction, PA is a cheap thrill, in this case a cheap thrill that bypasses the established mating rituals, intimacy, and appropriate reproductive / bonding patterns that naturally reside at the center of our human psychology. We are supposed to go through the “maze” to get to the “cheese”. P shortcuts, indeed short-circuits this most fundamental pattern of human behavior, skipping right to the high. The “high”, however, is short-lived. We feel an immediate, deep sense of dissatisfaction and pain (for me within minutes or seconds) after using P. To apply another analogy. We feel hungry. But, instead of going through the thoughtful work of preparing a proper balanced meal for ourself, we sit down to plate piled with jelly beans and Snickers. We attempt to meet a valid, essential human need with a cheap substitute. The cocaine addict seeks feelings that he/she has not earned in this life, feelings that ought to have been achieved through the fulfillment of life’s most significant drives and ambitions, instead just wanting that immediate rush. I have a friend who was from a leading political family in Columbia. I asked him about cocaine use in Columbia. The stuff sells for $1 / gram on the streets of Medellin, Columbia. He said that cocaine is not much of a problem for many Columbians. He said it is a low-class drug, similar to sniffing paint. Only derelicts and losers get involved with the drug, he told me.I agree with every sentiment and thought that you express, burnedout, which says a great deal about our common plight. I may as yet, however, still have a bit more faith in the natural state of the lower brain. For me it is not a “dark side”; it just needs to be channeled in healthy, civilized ways. I feel like I am white-water rafting at times. I suppose my point was that, while remaining all the more firm in our resolve to live P-free lives, we should not be so amazed at the dilemma we call PA. Technology has given rise to this, exploiting the vulnerable processes at the core of our psychological sense of fulfillment. 200 years ago, this problem would not have been possible.